Quote from: Decimator Omega on May 06, 2016, 02:43:37 PM

Honestly this is a good thing. Smoking is bad overall but its better than having it be legal to smoke at 18.

Explain how it's a good thing. The government isn't your babysitter. You're an adult who wants to fuck up your health, you have every right to do so.

The same reasons as to why you have to be at least 21 to buy alcohol. Your mind is still developing.

Quote from: SecondClass on May 06, 2016, 03:26:00 PM

Quote from: Decimator Omega on May 06, 2016, 02:43:37 PM

Honestly this is a good thing. Smoking is bad overall but its better than having it be legal to smoke at 18.

Explain how it's a good thing. The government isn't your babysitter. You're an adult who wants to fuck up your health, you have every right to do so.

The same reasons as to why you have to be at least 21 to buy alcohol. Your mind is still developing.

I was honestly about to say "well it's working fine for our euro friends" for a lower drinking age, but then I just remembered that they like to watch their wives and daughters be raped by Muslims. Maybe there's a correlation after all...

The idea that everyone should be able to do anything they want to themselves is noble and all, if you don't consider the millions of people literally killing themselves because of one of the most potent chemical addictions available, with immense ramification on the healthcare industry and labor force of the country.

Quote from: HollowedTurkey on May 06, 2016, 04:17:19 PM

The idea that everyone should be able to do anything they want to themselves is noble and all, if you don't consider the millions of people literally killing themselves because of one of the most potent chemical addictions available, with immense ramification on the healthcare industry and labor force of the country.

Doesn't matter. Human rights trump social climate.

You're treating addiction as some romanticized consequence of choice. The reality is that companies probably shouldn't have a right to market products like cigarettes, and it's only by longstanding corruption that it's been allowed to continue.

Choice and consent are all, and they're certainly more important than public health.

Doesn't my right to do what I want with my body end when it affects others' same right? Cigarettes produce a tangible, significant impact on the health of others, the cost of their healthcare, the efficiency of the labor force, the subsequent cost of a reduced labor force due to early medical retirements through social security and other welfare, and numerous other ways. It'd be all fine and dandy if our choices affected only ourselves, but that's something that just isn't reflected in reality.

Also:

moral crime

Come on.

we can do WHATEVER the fuck we want to to ourselves

Cigarette usage has a tangible, significant, negative impact on the state of the entire global economy, health, and wellbeing of the population. Arguing that addiction is some manifestation of your self-professed human right to "do whatever the fuck we want to ourselves" is dangerous and naive.

that's a problem with the current medical system

That's how insurance works. Lots of people making themselves fatally sick leads to a larger burden on the rest of society.

No one is physically affected by cigarette smoke who doesn't choose to partake in it.

This is blatantly false. The impact on the medical system has no doubt denied many people access to critical care in the same way we've seen at the VA and other overburdened systems, and at the very least imposes huge fiscal and labor costs on society.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w7979.pdf

The literature on the health economics of smoking presents two principal facts: that smoking increases health care costs, and that restrictions on smoking lead to reductions in smoking prevalence and intensity. Some researchers have hypothesized that these two facts, in combination, allow the inference that restricting smoking will lower health care costs. For a variety of reasons, however, observed associations between smoking and health care use on the one hand, and regulations and smoking on the other, do not imply a casual effect of the restrictions on health care. This paper extends the literature by examining whether cigarette tax increases lead to lower health care costs. Using data from the 1991 and 1993 National Heath Interview Surveys, it first reproduces the principal results in the literature on smoking, taxes, and health care utilization, and then estimates the effects of tobacco taxes on health care. The results indicate that once one controls for endogenous quits, the health care benefits of smoking cessation are greater than previously believed. There is weak evidence that tax increases lead to higher cessation rates. In combination, these results suggest that, in addition providing a source for funding excess health care costs, tax increases may lower health care costs (for given longevity) directly by inducing smokers to quit.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10860294

Smoking is the leading preventable cause of death in the United States. The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimate that smoking kills approximately 419,000 people in the United States each year. Cigarette smoking is the nation's leading cause of premature mortality, and is responsible for one-third of all deaths among working-age Americans. Smoking cigarettes is both psychologically and physiologically addictive. Smoking is an important risk factor for cardiovascular diseases, especially coronary artery disease, stroke, carcinoma of the lung, chronic bronchitis, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and emphysema. It also increases the risk for peripheral vascular disease and is associated with cancers of the larynx, oral cavity, esophagus, pancreas, and urinary bladder. Smoking by pregnant women can cause adverse health effects on their babies, like low birth weight and preterm delivery; increases the risk of miscarriage; and has also been found to be an important cause of sudden infant death syndrome. Careless smoking also can cause severe burn injuries and death. Many of these adverse effects of smoking occur in "second-hand" smokers.

http://www.cancer.org/research/infographicgallery/tobacco-related-healthcare-costs


Honestly it's fucking insane that a grown adult needs to have the societal burdens of tobacco abuse spelled out for him.

Out of curiosity, what's your stance on gun control, Class?

Quote from: SecondClass on May 06, 2016, 05:15:18 PM

The right to choose what you put into your own body is more important than the institution of insurance.

I don't care about insurance. It's widely known that smoking negatively affects others. Where does the right to "do whatever the fuck you want to your body" end in regards to others' same right?

Do you also think that people should be allowed to drink and drive?

You can't just equate doing something in the public sphere with doing something in the private sphere. I don't even think people should be able to drink on park benches.

This law doesn't say "only 21 year olds can smoke in public".

You can't just equate doing something in the public sphere with doing something in the private sphere. I don't even think people should be able to drink on park benches.

Why shouldn't someone be able to do whatever the fuck they want to their own body on a park bench? Does location even matter in regards to smoking since its negative effects on others are cumulative rather than immediate, like a drunken car crash?

You don't need anything bigger than a pistol or a hunting rifle.

Why shouldn't anybody be able to own anything they want? It's only when they harm someone else that they've done something wrong, right? Isn't the potential to harm someone never a justification for prohibiting somebody's expression of choice?

Quote from: SecondClass on May 06, 2016, 06:53:30 PM

You can't just equate doing something in the public sphere with doing something in the private sphere. I don't even think people should be able to drink on park benches.

Why shouldn't someone be able to do whatever the fuck they want to their own body on a park bench? Does location even matter in regards to smoking since its negative effects on others are cumulative rather than immediate, like a drunken car crash?

If the individual chooses to safely do a drug in the privacy of their own home, the wider social effects cease to matter. It's not nearly the same as drunk driving.

Quote from: HollowedTurkey on May 06, 2016, 06:55:38 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on May 06, 2016, 06:53:30 PM

You can't just equate doing something in the public sphere with doing something in the private sphere. I don't even think people should be able to drink on park benches.

Why shouldn't someone be able to do whatever the fuck to their own body on a park bench?

Same reason you're not allowed to fuck someone on a park bench. You're doing something unpleasant in the direct public eye.

um

Doesn't matter. Human rights trump social climate.

Quote from: SecondClass on May 06, 2016, 06:57:12 PM

Quote from: HollowedTurkey on May 06, 2016, 06:55:38 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on May 06, 2016, 06:53:30 PM

You can't just equate doing something in the public sphere with doing something in the private sphere. I don't even think people should be able to drink on park benches.

Why shouldn't someone be able to do whatever the fuck to their own body on a park bench?

Same reason you're not allowed to fuck someone on a park bench. You're doing something unpleasant in the direct public eye.

um

Quote from: SecondClass on May 06, 2016, 04:19:27 PM

Doesn't matter. Human rights trump social climate.

Wouldn't you consider having sex a human right? Are you going to say you also have a right to do it in public? Of course not, that's a completely other issue.

If I choose to fuck up my health, that's my choice. The government has zero rights to dictate what you can and can't ingest.

Smoking = bad health
Bad health = inflated cost of healthcare + less healthy workforce
Inflated cost of healthcare = some people cannot afford coverage and are denied critical care (it doesn't matter if you think insurance is done; this is reality)
Less healthy workforce = more taxes are required to support those individuals via welfare

It's demonstrable that the aggregate effect of smoking basically takes money out of peoples' pocket and endangers lives and livelihoods. Hell, I'd even go so far to say that smoking directly contributes to political corruption. So again, where does my right to do whatever the fuck I want with my body end in regards to others' same right?