California Smoking Age to go from 18 -> 21

 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
You can't just equate doing something in the public sphere with doing something in the private sphere. I don't even think people should be able to drink on park benches.
Why shouldn't someone be able to do whatever the fuck they want to their own body on a park bench? Does location even matter in regards to smoking since its negative effects on others are cumulative rather than immediate, like a drunken car crash?
You don't need anything bigger than a pistol or a hunting rifle.
Why shouldn't anybody be able to own anything they want? It's only when they harm someone else that they've done something wrong, right? Isn't the potential to harm someone never a justification for prohibiting somebody's expression of choice?
A possession isn't the same as an ingestion. I already said that possessions don't mean shit.


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If I choose to fuck up my health, that's my choice. The government has zero rights to dictate what you can and can't ingest.

Smoking = bad health
Bad health = inflated cost of healthcare + less healthy workforce
Inflated cost of healthcare = some people cannot afford coverage and are denied critical care (it doesn't matter if you think insurance is done; this is reality)
Less healthy workforce = more taxes are required to support those individuals via welfare

It's demonstrable that the aggregate effect of smoking basically takes money out of peoples' pocket and endangers lives and livelihoods. Hell, I'd even go so far to say that smoking directly contributes to political corruption. So again, where does my right to do whatever the fuck I want with my body end in regards to others' same right?
Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 07:07:07 PM by HollowedTurkey


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You can't just equate doing something in the public sphere with doing something in the private sphere. I don't even think people should be able to drink on park benches.
Why shouldn't someone be able to do whatever the fuck to their own body on a park bench?
Same reason you're not allowed to fuck someone on a park bench. You're doing something unpleasant in the direct public eye.

There is a massive difference between public eye and public health. I don't want some cuck smoking at my backyard period.
If I choose to fuck up my health, that's my choice. The government has zero rights to dictate what you can and can't ingest.

So if some cuck at my backyard decides to smoke and the smoke seeps into my bedroom, I have no right but to accept that? No I fucking close the window.

In fact, here is a real world example. It gets very hot here during the summer time. My cuck of a neighbor upstairs smokes inside. He has kids. That smoke travels through my air vent and we're all forced to shut off our AC because of the secondhand smoke, and secondhand smoke is very lethal, on top of that, it can damage electronics, so don't rub all that off as nothing. So we have no fucking right to complain? We have no fucking right to shut our AC off in that situation, we should just accept that shit and breath it in? Hell forget me? What about the kids this cuck has? They have no right to clean air? They're forced to breath all that shit in? They're going to have health problems by the time they reach their 20s.

Yes people can do whatever the fuck they want to themselves, I don't care, but the moment it starts to affect me or someone else, that's a fucking problem and I won't stand any of that shit, and if need be I'll take this kind of shit to court. Today is one of the rare days that I get clean air outside, and even on these days some fucking cuck who works in the building next to mine decides its a great idea to have a smoke in the parking lot, forcing me to close my window, every fucking time.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
Because the right to ingest whatever you want is more direct and immediate than any detriment it causes. If a fancy new study came out tomorrow that said segregated schools led to a better society, would you segregate schools? Any negative outcome that comes from an inherent right is the fault of the society's structure, not the right. If even the idea of a society imposes upon the right to consume whatever you substance you want to, then the idea is wrong.


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Wouldn't you consider having sex a human right? Are you going to say you also have a right to do it in public? Of course not, that's a completely other issue.

Wouldn't you consider doing whatever the fuck you want to yourself a human right? Are you going to say you also have a right to do it in a way that tangibly, physically harms other people? Of course not, that's a completely other issue.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
You can't just equate doing something in the public sphere with doing something in the private sphere. I don't even think people should be able to drink on park benches.
Why shouldn't someone be able to do whatever the fuck to their own body on a park bench?
Same reason you're not allowed to fuck someone on a park bench. You're doing something unpleasant in the direct public eye.

There is a massive difference between public eye and public health. I don't want some cuck smoking at my backyard period.
If I choose to fuck up my health, that's my choice. The government has zero rights to dictate what you can and can't ingest.

So if some cuck at my backyard decides to smoke and the smoke seeps into my bedroom, I have no right but to accept that? No I fucking close the window.
No, because he's taking the indecent act into the public sphere. It's no different if a couple had sex in a brightly lit room with open windows where everyone can see, you call the police and report a disturbance.

I'm talking about responsible personal usage behind closed doors.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
Wouldn't you consider having sex a human right? Are you going to say you also have a right to do it in public? Of course not, that's a completely other issue.

Wouldn't you consider doing whatever the fuck you want to yourself a human right? Are you going to say you also have a right to do it in a way that tangibly, physically harms other people? Of course not, that's a completely other issue.
You have an obligation to exercise that right in a way that only immediately affects yourself.

I keep answering your questions, and you don't answer mine. Very telling.


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Wouldn't you consider having sex a human right? Are you going to say you also have a right to do it in public? Of course not, that's a completely other issue.

Wouldn't you consider doing whatever the fuck you want to yourself a human right? Are you going to say you also have a right to do it in a way that tangibly, physically harms other people? Of course not, that's a completely other issue.
You have an obligation to exercise that right in a way that only immediately affects yourself.

I keep answering your questions, and you don't answer mine. Very telling.

Those were the first two questions you've asked me, and they were rhetorical.

What should be done if somebody doesn't exercise their rights in a way that only immediately affects themselves?


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
Wouldn't you consider having sex a human right? Are you going to say you also have a right to do it in public? Of course not, that's a completely other issue.

Wouldn't you consider doing whatever the fuck you want to yourself a human right? Are you going to say you also have a right to do it in a way that tangibly, physically harms other people? Of course not, that's a completely other issue.
You have an obligation to exercise that right in a way that only immediately affects yourself.

I keep answering your questions, and you don't answer mine. Very telling.

Those were the first two questions you've asked me, and they were rhetorical.

What should be done if somebody doesn't exercise their rights in a way that only immediately affects themselves?
A regulation isn't the same thing as a restriction. Just like taxes are an imposition from the government in exchange for government services, a refutation are an imposition in exchange for order. They're a way to make sure the right is still accessible, but in a way that interferes as little as possible with the fabric of society.

In an ideal world where something like heroin is legal, heroin isn't manufactured and handed out by anyone. You need to have permits, registration, etc, to ensure it's pure and customers are getting what they know they're getting.

With that in mind, to answer your question, the same thing would happen if someone broke the regulation you mentioned as would happen to someone who broke the regulation I just mentioned. It would be a broken law, same as any other.
Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 07:20:12 PM by SecondClass


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If I choose to fuck up my health, that's my choice. The government has zero rights to dictate what you can and can't ingest.

Smoking = bad health
Bad health = inflated cost of healthcare + less healthy workforce
Inflated cost of healthcare = some people cannot afford coverage and are denied critical care (it doesn't matter if you think insurance is done; this is reality)
Less healthy workforce = more taxes are required to support those individuals via welfare

It's demonstrable that the aggregate effect of smoking basically takes money out of peoples' pocket and endangers lives and livelihoods. Hell, I'd even go so far to say that smoking directly contributes to political corruption. So again, where does my right to do whatever the fuck I want with my body end in regards to others' same right?

You forgot the fact that the time and resources of the hospitals are going towards people who fuck their own shit up when they could go to the people that genuinely deserve that support

particularly in the NHS in the UK where everyone gets healthcare so it means that there's people actively taking money, resources, time and space away from others because they're idiots that continue despite having every chance and warning not to do so.


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You can't just equate doing something in the public sphere with doing something in the private sphere. I don't even think people should be able to drink on park benches.
Why shouldn't someone be able to do whatever the fuck to their own body on a park bench?
Same reason you're not allowed to fuck someone on a park bench. You're doing something unpleasant in the direct public eye.

There is a massive difference between public eye and public health. I don't want some cuck smoking at my backyard period.
If I choose to fuck up my health, that's my choice. The government has zero rights to dictate what you can and can't ingest.

So if some cuck at my backyard decides to smoke and the smoke seeps into my bedroom, I have no right but to accept that? No I fucking close the window.
No, because he's taking the indecent act into the public sphere. It's no different if a couple had sex in a brightly lit room with open windows where everyone can see, you call the police and report a disturbance.

I'm talking about responsible personal usage behind closed doors.

I think I'd rather have more people fucking out here rather than smokers. You seem to be missing the point.


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With that in mind, to answer your question, the same thing would happen if someone broke the regulation you mentioned as would happen to someone who broke the regulation I just mentioned. It would be a broken law, same as any other.
Well I've already demonstrated that smoking cigarettes actually does hurt others, so should they all be punished? I didn't ask about a regulation; I'm asking what should happen, in your moral framework, when someone harms someone else in the execution of their right to do whatever they want to their body.

And there seems to be a pretty huge distinction between banning the production or import of cigarettes, and banning the use of cigarettes. Maybe you have the right to do whatever you want, but companies certainly don't have the right to sell whatever they want; this isn't a completely free market, after all.
Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 07:29:17 PM by HollowedTurkey


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
With that in mind, to answer your question, the same thing would happen if someone broke the regulation you mentioned as would happen to someone who broke the regulation I just mentioned. It would be a broken law, same as any other.
Well I've already demonstrated that smoking cigarettes actually does hurt others, so should they all be punished? I didn't ask about a regulation; I'm asking what should happen, in your moral framework, when someone harms someone else in the execution of their right to do whatever they want to their body.

And there seems to be a pretty huge distinction between banning the production or import of cigarettes, and banning the use of cigarettes. Maybe you have the right to do whatever you want, but companies certainly don't have the right to sell whatever they want; this isn't a completely free market, after all.
You demonstrated they hurt society in a broad sense, I'm talking about immediate effects that an individual smoker creates while he's smoking a cigarette. If healthcare is effected because of that private execution of his right, that's a problem with healthcare.

And of course, it's not a right to sell cigarettes, it's a right to smoke them. The government needs to allow some legal access to them, though.


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You demonstrated they hurt society in a broad sense, I'm talking about immediate effects that an individual smoker creates while he's smoking a cigarette. If healthcare is effected because of that private execution of his right, that's a problem with healthcare.

You claim it's wrong for the government to allow water companies to fluoridate public water because it hurts society in a broad sense (disclaimer for all: it doesn't, and no research supports that it does). Then that must be a problem with healthcare, too.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
You demonstrated they hurt society in a broad sense, I'm talking about immediate effects that an individual smoker creates while he's smoking a cigarette. If healthcare is effected because of that private execution of his right, that's a problem with healthcare.

You claim it's wrong for the government to allow water companies to fluoridate public water because it hurts society in a broad sense (disclaimer for all: it doesn't, and no research supports that it does). Then that must be a problem with healthcare, too.
Holy shit, you cannot grasp the simpliest ideas I'm setting out. People don't consent to flourinated water, and the government adds it without the say of every person who uses tap water. That's why it's wrong. And yes, external fluoride is bad for you.


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People don't consent to flourinated water, and the government adds it without the say of every person who uses tap water.


And non-smokers don't consent to being burdened by those who do smoke. Are you starting to see how the actions of individuals in a society can affect the others as a whole, and why certain things should be regulated?

Quote
That's why it's wrong. And yes, external fluoride is bad for you.
Again, for anyone reading: it isn't.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
Everyone is directly burdened by flourinated tap water because they are unknowingly forced to consume it (it's not labeled). Only smokers are directly burdened by cigarettes, because only they are consuming them. Are you beginning to see the difference?


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Everyone is directly burdened by flourinated tap water because they are unknowingly forced to consume it (it's not labeled). Only smokers are directly burdened by cigarettes, because only they are consuming them. Are you beginning to see the difference?

It's common knowledge that water is fluoridated. And no, all of society is burdened by cigarettes.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
The broad social consequences cease to matter when they're derived from the reasonable exercise of a human right.

If even the idea of a society imposes upon the right to consume whatever you substance you want to, then the idea is wrong.


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The broad social consequences cease to matter when they're derived from the reasonable exercise of a human right.

Oh, yeah, "reasonable". That's a well-defined moral term, right there.

So explain to me why I can't fuck my wife in public, then? Sex is natural, and celebrated in some cultures. My rights trump social climate, according to you.

This is going in circles. You're wrong, I'm right, 1mg/L of fluoride is safe, jet fuel can compromise the structure of steel beams, Bush didn't do 9/11, lizardmen are fake and the moon isn't cheese. I think that covers everything.