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Messages - Verbatim
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43021
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:12:21 AM »
And I made the point that pressing the button would, in my eyes, be beneficial to mankind. To cease to be. She figures you'd have some misgivings about that concept. Do you? You're talking about either Isara or Korra here, right?
Prime Meridia. I know her by Aria, sorry. I forget sometimes that she's still kinda new here.
43022
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:11:38 AM »
Alright fine.
Apocalyptic senario.
A small starting country.
Take your pick. Why would you need to have kids in an apocalyptic scenario? Do you think countries need to be started? There's no life on Mars--no one weeps over the fact that there's no life on Mars. Why does there need to be life here? Do you think the universe gives a fuck?
43023
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:08:40 AM »
So we were just talking about it the other day, and there came a point of contention where she thought that, because I think "morality" is objective, like you, that must mean I think that all decisions that are made must be either, you know, neutral, or beneficial to society/mankind in some way. That's moral behavior. Do good. Help your fellow man. And I made the point that pressing the button would, in my eyes, be beneficial to mankind. To cease to be. She figures you'd have some misgivings about that concept. Do you?
43024
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:01:16 AM »
I'd much rather you give an example based on reality.
43025
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:59:18 AM »
Say in the perfect society that there are no kids who stay in orphanages for very long, and the orphanages are relatively empty because they get picked up by a family so quickly.
By all means, have 1-3 kids. But you don't believe that perfection exists.
43026
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:57:46 AM »
Well that's a shame.
not the killing yourself bit It was the only bit there, really...
43027
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:55:46 AM »
There's a reason I ask pro-natalists (awful term) for a GOOD REASON to have kids. It's not a rhetorical question--I actually want an answer. I've never received a good one. Even Nuka concedes that there is no good reason to have kids.
Only for as long as the need for adoption exists.
So, okay, what's a good reason to HAVE kids, then, if adoption is out of the equation? A good reason, not based on ego desire.
43028
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:54:15 AM »
Not to mention, I can't persuade people not to have kids if I'm fucking dead. Ah yes, the gallant Knight of Grey is here to spread the word of why everything sucks.
That really is why I don't kill myself, though. Apart from the obvious. Frankly, if I wanted to kill myself, I'd have done it already--but I have things to do. Purposes to fulfill. I was GIVEN them, sure--without my permission--but I can't do anything about it now. If I killed myself, I see that as... one less person who knows what he's talking about. I won't say I'm intelligent, or right, but I know for SURE what I'm talking about. And I'm gonna spread it around.
43029
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:51:20 AM »
Awkward. I can see where you're coming from, but I think the thought experiment would be much more relevant if--instead of the deletion of life--its the deletion of the capacity to actualise potential persons; mass sterilisation.
I like that better, too, honestly.
43030
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:50:34 AM »
Then I'm sure he'd be all for that.
I don't think so since that would be its own form of imposition. It'd depend on how he perceived the balance of utility in that hypothetical.
Here's the thing. Impositions aren't inherently bad, either. I think you'd agree with that. There's a reason I ask pro-natalists (awful term) for a GOOD REASON to have kids. It's not a rhetorical question--I actually want an answer. I've never received a good one. Even Nuka concedes that there is no good reason to have kids. But impositions are okay as long as you are dead-certain that the result will benefit mankind. ...Which brings me to another discussion that Aria suggested that I have with you the other day!
43031
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:47:24 AM »
...I think I'll have to think about this for a while before I reply again. That's what you should do, always.
43032
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:45:54 AM »
Unless there was a painless way to eradicate all life.
Then I'm sure he'd be all for that. There's a famous thought experiment in anti-natalist circles referred to as "the red button", and I'm sure you know what it entails. The instantaneous deletion of all life. If I had the button, I'd press it, no questions asked. Then I'm sure he'd be all for that. I don't think so since that would be its own form of imposition. It'd depend on how he perceived the balance of utility in that hypothetical.
Awkward.
43033
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:44:29 AM »
There's no such thing as perfection, even if it is such in your subjective view. I just defined it for you. Nonexistence. It's a utopia. Before you were born, there was no war, no fighting, no anger, no disagreement. No nothing. To me, that is perfection. Killing myself doesn't evoke nonexistence for all life. It doesn't solve anything, and it makes it WORSE for people who have attachments to me. Explain to me why that maters, then. Especially if it goes against all your desires for nonexistence.[/quote]Why what matters? My friend's and family's earthly attachments to me? Because I don't want them to suffer emotionally, quite obviously. Not to mention, I can't persuade people not to have kids if I'm fucking dead.
43034
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:40:38 AM »
One proposition of anti-natalism, as least as far as I can tell, is that a potential person should hold more precedence than an actual person. That sounds rather preposterous to me. I've never said anything remotely similar to that.
43035
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:39:31 AM »
Not when there's adoption, sure. And I have no qualms with adoption whatsoever.
43036
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:39:02 AM »
Yes.
43037
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:36:56 AM »
Just about as much as nonexistence, wouldn't you say? No, because nonexistence is perfection. There is nothing to accomplish. Killing myself doesn't evoke nonexistence for all life. It doesn't solve anything, and it makes it WORSE for people who have attachments to me.
43038
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:34:06 AM »
But it's pretty stupid if you think that's the only reason people have kids. I don't think that. What I do think, however, is that there is no good reason to have kids.
43039
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:32:50 AM »
But wishing for no existence at all is obviously stupid and futile. Might as well just off yourself if that's what you want, rather than being an insufferable edgelord. Yeah, wow, that would accomplish a lot. The id is your natural impulses, no? Procreation is one of those. If we're going off of Freud's model (I wasn't, initially), the ego is what seeks to sate the id.
43040
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:28:59 AM »
That's not ego. It's EXACTLY ego. "I want to be a father. I want to extend my bloodline." Ego. It'd be id, actually. No, uh, yeah, it's ego. I know what I'm talking about. Been at this for two years. I'm not talking about Freud's model here.
43041
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:26:38 AM »
Good luck with that. Tell me how far you manage to get with it. As mentioned in the OP, I'm able to get most people to concede many core tenets of anti-natalism. The hump that most people can't get over is their own ego. They WANT the human race to continue for... some stupid, petty, worthless reason. Based on their ego.
43042
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:22:13 AM »
Obviously no one is. But you can't stop the universe from doing so. I would like to see the universe try and stop me.I'm an advocate for a philosophy that I believe in. I'm going to fucking TRY to get people not to have kids.
43043
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:20:17 AM »
Morality is integral to the argument for anti-natalism. Well, logistical "ought"s are. That is, "sentient being ought not suffer," or "sentient beings ought not kill each other." Those are integral. I still don't like the word "morality" because it has... religious implications that I hate.
43044
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:17:24 AM »
Everything in life is basically a test to see how far you go. Who are you to impose some stupid test on someone?
43045
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:14:32 AM »
43046
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:12:44 AM »
I don't see the issue. That's basically what scientists do with lab rats. Scientists are doing productive things with their specimens for the benefit of, you know, science. People don't have kids for the same reasons. At all. Not even close.
43047
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:08:55 AM »
Verbatim's primary argument is that conception is wrong because the one being conceived cannot consent beforehand. But how does that which does not exist consent, or do anything at all for that matter? Why the fuck do you say "primary"? It's AN argument that I gave. It's not my fucking primary argument.
43048
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:08:08 AM »
I'd like you to clarify why not having kids--if taken as a moral imperative--is at all logical impossible.
Drawing a triangle with four sides? THAT's logically impossible. He's referring to the fact that I refer to life as an imposition. I often say, I would have no problem with natalism (giving birth) if you had a choice in the matter. If you could give your consent, I wouldn't have problems with procreation. Because you could say, "Wow, fuck you, I don't wanna be a part of that hellhole." But because that's not possible, Kupo thinks it's okay to impose life. Because there has to be an existing person to consent in order for it to matter. That's his logic.
43049
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:05:26 AM »
Or better yet, to put them up to the challenge to see how far they can go. Why? For what?
43050
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:02:14 AM »
Life isn't supposed to be fair. All the more reason not to impose life on others.
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