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Messages - Flee
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541
« on: June 30, 2018, 10:45:47 AM »
I dont believe people behind a news outlet with reach and influence wouldnt abuse that more than 'likely'. The backlash and fallout are bigger for such outlets but so is the wall to expose bad behavior. Perhaps, but there's a good argument against the wall not being bigger either. Not only is the critical audience much larger (millions of people from all sides, including the opposition, follow the MSM as opposed to a much smaller group that cares about the videos put out by someone like Tim Pool) making it easier for someone to pick up on bad behavior. These newspapers also often employ hundreds of people (making it much harder to keep abuse under the covers) and are subject to watchdogs and all sorts of boards (editorial, directors, ethics...). I think you're kind of underestimating how difficult it would be for one of the top newspapers to suddenly get away with genuine fake news, full blown misinformation campaigns or deliberately pushing a counter-factual narrative without any nuance - and those are some of the things the alt and independent media appears to be rife with. I didnt contribute to anything here other than showing my bias. I guess my point is youre too forgiving for MSM even if alt media is worse.
Fair enough, although I don't really see how. My only point is that the alt media has so many flaws that it's by and large a worse source of information and that it should be treated as such. The MSM should be treated with skepticism too but it's still considerably more reliable and trustworthy.
542
« on: June 30, 2018, 05:31:37 AM »
Is there any sort of continuity to this or is it just random every roll?
543
« on: June 29, 2018, 10:18:31 AM »
Raymond Day:
"Can someone understand it here? I have a dog, a puppy, he's doing something with his paw... like saluting?"
Mark Meechan, raising his hand from the audience:
"Yes, I have a puppy. I've taught him to salute."
Raymond Day:
"Oh, ok. It's saluting like... I can`t remember... it's saluting reminds me something..."
Mark Meechan:
"Oh, I taught him to salute like Nazi for a joke, I also made a vid and uploaded it on Youtube."
Raymond Day:
"Right, right. Now your dog, tells me something... Oh, that's terrible... Would you hear that?"
Mark Meechan:
"What it told you?"
Raymond Day:
"It told me that somebody got "grossly offended" by your puppy's video and that you will get sued and you will lose the court, I'm sorry to hear that."
Mark Meechan:
"But that was just a joke. How can I get sued for a joke?"
Raymond Day:
"Your dog says me, but in different voice... like judge voice... it says "Context doesn`t matter"... "Context doesn`t matter". Okay, I'll leave you with that, thank you."
Context doesn't matter was such a stupid remark in that case.
I think overall trying to regulate hate speech is a stupid idea, because there is no clear way of defining hate speech and I don't think there will be one.
Nah, hate speech is pretty clear cut. "I hate America" and "death to America" can both be seen as hate speech, but it's the latter that is obviously inciting violence against Americans and American institutions. That should be punished and even have you brought under suspicion of terrorism.
I didn`t say that hate speech shouldn't be punished, I said that attempts to regulate it are stupid. Usually cases of hate speech aren`t that clear as threating ("death to America") or describing your stance ("I hate America"), and thats a problem, because how you fix something when you don`t know what exactly to fix?
How do you suggest it's punished without it being regulated though?
It shouldn`t itself be punished, as there is no clear way to define it, however it can be punished based on a context. Saying "Death to America" out of blue shouldn`t be punished, because there isn`t anything accompanying it, but if there is some conditions, behaviour that imply that you actually mean that and you actually going to do something illegal based on this words, then yes, you can punish that.
I think that's already largely the case. Much of the criticism I've heard against hate speech comes down to people thinking that it's just an arbitrary decision of something hateful. Under much of EU law, hate speech is for example defined as publicly inciting violence, discrimination or hatred against a group of persons or a member of the group defined by reference to race, color, nationality, ethnic origin, sexuality on the basis of intolerance. In my opinion, that provides a fair bit of circumstances as context.
544
« on: June 29, 2018, 09:49:44 AM »
Keep in mind, nowhere in the world is free speech considered an absolute right that cannot be limited or curtailed. Many jurisdictions allow for limitations to be put in place.
545
« on: June 29, 2018, 09:48:52 AM »
Raymond Day:
"Can someone understand it here? I have a dog, a puppy, he's doing something with his paw... like saluting?"
Mark Meechan, raising his hand from the audience:
"Yes, I have a puppy. I've taught him to salute."
Raymond Day:
"Oh, ok. It's saluting like... I can`t remember... it's saluting reminds me something..."
Mark Meechan:
"Oh, I taught him to salute like Nazi for a joke, I also made a vid and uploaded it on Youtube."
Raymond Day:
"Right, right. Now your dog, tells me something... Oh, that's terrible... Would you hear that?"
Mark Meechan:
"What it told you?"
Raymond Day:
"It told me that somebody got "grossly offended" by your puppy's video and that you will get sued and you will lose the court, I'm sorry to hear that."
Mark Meechan:
"But that was just a joke. How can I get sued for a joke?"
Raymond Day:
"Your dog says me, but in different voice... like judge voice... it says "Context doesn`t matter"... "Context doesn`t matter". Okay, I'll leave you with that, thank you."
Context doesn't matter was such a stupid remark in that case.
I think overall trying to regulate hate speech is a stupid idea, because there is no clear way of defining hate speech and I don't think there will be one.
Nah, hate speech is pretty clear cut. "I hate America" and "death to America" can both be seen as hate speech, but it's the latter that is obviously inciting violence against Americans and American institutions. That should be punished and even have you brought under suspicion of terrorism.
I didn`t say that hate speech shouldn't be punished, I said that attempts to regulate it are stupid. Usually cases of hate speech aren`t that clear as threating ("death to America") or describing your stance ("I hate America"), and thats a problem, because how you fix something when you don`t know what exactly to fix?
How do you suggest it's punished without it being regulated though?
How are threats of violence regulated at the moment?
The details depend on the specific country or legal system but to my knowledge it's more or less the same everywhere. The criminal code contains a section for threats of violence to the person or property and thereby criminalizes it. Some jurisdictions consider it "intimidation", others "threats". Often it requires some conditions to be met such as it seriously making a person fear for his or her safety. It's pretty logical and reasonable imo.
546
« on: June 29, 2018, 09:24:37 AM »
Raymond Day:
"Can someone understand it here? I have a dog, a puppy, he's doing something with his paw... like saluting?"
Mark Meechan, raising his hand from the audience:
"Yes, I have a puppy. I've taught him to salute."
Raymond Day:
"Oh, ok. It's saluting like... I can`t remember... it's saluting reminds me something..."
Mark Meechan:
"Oh, I taught him to salute like Nazi for a joke, I also made a vid and uploaded it on Youtube."
Raymond Day:
"Right, right. Now your dog, tells me something... Oh, that's terrible... Would you hear that?"
Mark Meechan:
"What it told you?"
Raymond Day:
"It told me that somebody got "grossly offended" by your puppy's video and that you will get sued and you will lose the court, I'm sorry to hear that."
Mark Meechan:
"But that was just a joke. How can I get sued for a joke?"
Raymond Day:
"Your dog says me, but in different voice... like judge voice... it says "Context doesn`t matter"... "Context doesn`t matter". Okay, I'll leave you with that, thank you."
Context doesn't matter was such a stupid remark in that case.
I think overall trying to regulate hate speech is a stupid idea, because there is no clear way of defining hate speech and I don't think there will be one.
Nah, hate speech is pretty clear cut. "I hate America" and "death to America" can both be seen as hate speech, but it's the latter that is obviously inciting violence against Americans and American institutions. That should be punished and even have you brought under suspicion of terrorism.
I didn`t say that hate speech shouldn't be punished, I said that attempts to regulate it are stupid. Usually cases of hate speech aren`t that clear as threating ("death to America") or describing your stance ("I hate America"), and thats a problem, because how you fix something when you don`t know what exactly to fix?
How do you suggest it's punished without it being regulated though?
547
« on: June 29, 2018, 06:48:56 AM »
Raymond Day:
"Can someone understand it here? I have a dog, a puppy, he's doing something with his paw... like saluting?"
Mark Meechan, raising his hand from the audience:
"Yes, I have a puppy. I've taught him to salute."
Raymond Day:
"Oh, ok. It's saluting like... I can`t remember... it's saluting reminds me something..."
Mark Meechan:
"Oh, I taught him to salute like Nazi for a joke, I also made a vid and uploaded it on Youtube."
Raymond Day:
"Right, right. Now your dog, tells me something... Oh, that's terrible... Would you hear that?"
Mark Meechan:
"What it told you?"
Raymond Day:
"It told me that somebody got "grossly offended" by your puppy's video and that you will get sued and you will lose the court, I'm sorry to hear that."
Mark Meechan:
"But that was just a joke. How can I get sued for a joke?"
Raymond Day:
"Your dog says me, but in different voice... like judge voice... it says "Context doesn`t matter"... "Context doesn`t matter". Okay, I'll leave you with that, thank you."
Context doesn't matter was such a stupid remark in that case.
548
« on: June 29, 2018, 04:31:12 AM »
549
« on: June 29, 2018, 04:30:21 AM »
I'm actually at a PhD defense about this very topic right now. They're talking about a new leaked text.
ladeeda
say that to my face fucker not on the internet and see what happens
You aight white boy
No I'm not alright. Do you know what the most oppressed group in the world is? White, straight men living in wealthy first world countries.The PC SJW snowflakes are waging a war on us through the MSM (in case you didn't know that stands for the mainstream media or as I like to call it the FAKE NEWS) and are trying to wipe us out. It's time to take a stand and MAGA (that means make America Greta Again, okay?) and RISE UP against people from Venezuela like Chally who just come here and trample on my RIGHTS. This society...
Christians are the most oppressed group. Luckily Trump is making America great again.
Christians? Don't make me laugh. Have you ever told someone you're gamer? You should shut your clueless mouth until you've experienced the only real discrimination we see in 2018 — that of a REAL gamer who's ignored by women and unfairly targeted by the fake news media for mass shootings.
550
« on: June 29, 2018, 03:01:16 AM »
I'm actually at a PhD defense about this very topic right now. They're talking about a new leaked text.
ladeeda
say that to my face fucker not on the internet and see what happens
You aight white boy
No I'm not alright. Do you know what the most oppressed group in the world is? White, straight men living in wealthy first world countries.The PC SJW snowflakes are waging a war on us through the MSM (in case you didn't know that stands for the mainstream media or as I like to call it the FAKE NEWS) and are trying to wipe us out. It's time to take a stand and MAGA (that means make America Greta Again, okay?) and RISE UP against people from Venezuela like Chally who just come here and trample on my RIGHTS. This society...
551
« on: June 28, 2018, 03:59:36 PM »
I dont have any real arguments as i find most media reporting to be inane. I fully see why alt media is prone to being less reliable but MSM having more reach and influence should make people wary. I think that's actually another point to bolster my argument. The MSM having more reach and influence should make people more wary but it also means that the people behind them are likely to be more cautious and responsible. The backlash and potential fallout are so much greater for a (published) news outlet with hundreds of thousands of readers/viewers (and they actually have watchdogs and boards that they're held accountable to) that I think it's only logical that they're more careful about spreading misinformation or stories with potentially harmful consequences. News outlets like The Guardian, Reuters and NYT have to carry much more responsibility than some alternative or independent journalist, and I think that shows in their behavior. Still, I get your point. Their reach and influence should be met with wariness. But I think that doesn't detract from my point that people should be more skeptical when it comes to the independent / alternative ones. Im informed as to whats happening at a surface level because its impossible not to on the internet.
That's very strange to me. It almost amounts to deliberate ignorance. Do you not want to know or have you just checked out off all things that don't directly affect your daily life?
552
« on: June 28, 2018, 03:49:55 PM »
@Flee
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/8ugrow/eu_copyright_ama_we_are_professors_lionel_bently/
Sweet, thanks for letting me know. I know Husovec personally and met Angelopoulos last year. Her responses should be great in particular as this is very closely related to her PhD research.
Very good AMA. Would definitely recommend reading this to anyone interested in the topic. The responses cut straight through much of the sensationalist BS people have been spreading and debunk the "EU IS BANNING MEMES DEATH OF THE INTERNET" narrative but they also present a very accurate overview of the real issues and concerns that should get us to oppose the Directive.
553
« on: June 28, 2018, 02:58:09 PM »
I dont see the problem
Same. Go hamster go.
554
« on: June 28, 2018, 01:27:09 PM »
Both the MSM and alt media require more than just a grain, youre naive.
Its a little more important for the MSM to not fuck up pushing something fake or badly researched out in the first place as the damage is done far wider and quicker. All media should require perfection and abandon of the writers personal biases.
But that will never happen and i will continue to not follow any media outlets.
My point kind of was that even though they should all be treated with skepticism, the alternative ones should be even more so. The grain part was just the expression. I think I made a pretty good case as to why the alternative media is usually less reliable and you're not giving any real counter arguments. There's no reason to assume they are both equally prone to being bad news. How do you stay informed if you don't follow any media outlets?
555
« on: June 28, 2018, 09:47:07 AM »
Independent journalism and alternative news is something I've seen a lot of people rave about recently. With many deriding the mainstream media (MSM) for various reasons, I've been looking into some of these alternative sources myself. Unfortunately, I haven't warmed up to them much and remain unconvinced of their value over other sources of information. In short, I have three main issues with them. 1. They are independent only in the most narrow sense of the word. They may not be part of an association or work with an editorial board, but this doesn't mean they're free from external influence whatsoever. I'd even say they're more affected by (peer) pressure and coutsider leverage than traditional sources of media. Independent or alternative does not mean they're neutral, objective or fair, and much of this has to do with how important community support is for them. Spoiler They are fully paid by their viewers/readers and supporters on sites like Patreon. If people don't click, comment and donate, they will not be able to pay their bills or continue doing this. And most of their community does not follow their content because they're interested in neutral and factual reporting. They're not watching to be challenged, countered or get a nuanced view. They watch because they want to be validated. They want their preconceptions to be confirmed, see that there's thousands like them and have a charismatic and seemingly knowledgable person affirm their views on certain topics.
And that's something that creates a vicious cycle in which these personalities can't really go against what their community expects. They don't want fair. They want a slamdown of the opposition. A Youtuber that amassed a following with videos on anti-feminism, anti-immigration, anti-globalism, anti-PC/SJW, anti-welfare, pro-populism, pro-gun... can't make videos that go against this narrative because it will hurt their income. This is apparent everywhere. A big independent journalist is Tim Pool. I went through his stuff a while ago and in one of his older videos he received quite a few downvotes and plenty of upset comments. Why? Because he said something good about what his audience thinks should be bad. While his videos often seem reasonable, they're very leading and meant to foster a much more radical and vile community - something he must be well aware of. He can get away with diverging a few times, sure, but if he suddenly changes his tune and produces content that doesn't continue a very clear and often slanted narrative of anti-leftism, anti-establishment, anti-MSM and so on, his supporters will no doubt be quick to drop him and move elsewhere as soon as they feel they lost their ally. So while they are independent in the strictest sense, these outlets are very vulnerable to external influence and often have little to no choice but to continue covering specific topics from a specific angle to feed an established narrative that will be supported by their community. As we're moving further away from the center and closer to the extremes, this is very detrimental to the reliability, accuracy and quality of their content. 2. Their lack of accountability. Like it or not, but the traditional media do have pretty good mechanisms in place to stop abuse. Editorial boards, review procedures, protection of sources, codes of conduct and standards of journalistic integrity, press boards, media watchdogs, procedures to file complaints... Of course, the media still messes up. But more often than not you'll see people being held accountable. Articles will be retracted or corrected in light of new information, apologies will be issued, and certain standards of quality reporting are often enforced. The people employed are usually trained writers and journalists who have received training on doing research and applying right methodologies. Yet in the alternative media, none of that really exists. Fake news will go unchallenged, incorrect information doesn't get amended, there's no sanctions for abuse, no standards of integrity, no nothing stopping anyone from jumping the gun... It's against their interests to do anything like that. You're not going to remove a popular youtube video making you money every day because you made a mistake, nor are you going to take accountability when something incorrect still achieves the desired purpose, puts your name out there and garners community support. And that too should seriously worry anyone who cares about the truth. 3. The often low quality of the content. As a result of the first two points, the actual information they put out is often highly slanted. Positions to the opposite are ignored or underrepresented. Points are often cherrypicked and made with lacking knowledge on a certain topic. Leading questions, thumbnails and titles frame the media from start to finish ("now I'm not saying it's like this, buuuut I'm just suggestively asking loaded questions"). Sources are often missing or of really low quality. Covering the recent Tommy Robinson news, should I involve a legal expert from the UK who actually knows what they're talking about (as several legal blogs covered in great detail) or should I get an American MAGA activist and lawyer who supported Tommy and has no expertise on this topic on the show? Hmm... Covering the topic of gun control, should I get some knowledgable criminologists on here or should I instead feature a gun owner fighting against gun policy, an NRA instructor and a pro-gun youtuber with the other side being represented only by selected street interviews at a march of ignorant people. The answer is pretty clear. Your viewers want metaphorical blood, they don't want someone knowledgable going against the narrative. They want to laugh at some random girl saying all assault rifle 100 magazine round ghost guns should be banned, not have an actual expert provide them with research and hard facts on how the most comprehensive study in history just found very strong evidence in favor of certain types of gun control. They want the MAGA man lament the horrors of Robinson, not a specialized UK lawyer explaining the actual proceedings and confirm that he did get a lawyer and trial and wasn't placed on what amounts to death row. And so that's what you give them. tl;dr independent / alternative news is by and large unreliable. The lack of accountability, the extremely selective coverage of topics, the strong financial need to satisfy the direct supporters with a clear and biased narrative, and the often low quality and massively slanted reporting of topics are some of the main issues I see. The traditional mainstream media remains the better source of information by an enormous margin. While all news should be taken with a grain of salt, the alternative sources require a lot more than just a single grain. Interested in your thoughts since I know there's several people here who follow these outlets.
556
« on: June 28, 2018, 07:14:05 AM »
You can always send me a PM on Discord if you want to talk Deci.
558
« on: June 28, 2018, 05:20:40 AM »
Sign me up!
559
« on: June 27, 2018, 02:08:05 PM »
I care about you my man, don't worry.
I appreciate that
did you get your PhD yet?
Nah, won't be for a while. I haven't even been able to really to do much for it. I was at the European Commission HQ this Monday to finally close a project on government surveillance and preventing terrorism. This has been my main task for the past year and a half so I'm stoked to be done with it. I'm starting a new project on predictive policing now but should have more time to finally submit a proposal and get it approved. It's a pretty lengthy process to even get approval to start a PhD in my field and on the topic I'm working on. Things haven't been bad though. I've published several articles in peer reviewed journals and got to travel to present my work at several conferences. I was just in Athens last month so that's all pretty sweet stuff.
How have you been?
Eh, I'm stuck in the midwest
I took a summer job with arduous hours and now I'm just desperate to get out of here and for the summer to be over
We're leaving for Seattle in two weeks
Who's we? What kind of summer job?
560
« on: June 27, 2018, 02:03:55 PM »
What is your job, exactly?
I'm a legal researcher / lawyer who specializes in IT law. I look at the legal side of all things tech. Stuff like cybercrime, robotics, autonomous vehicles, cryptocurrency, encryption, media and telecoms, cyberwarfare, privacy, data protection, censorship, internet, human rights... My main areas of interest are AI, algorithmic transparency and fairness, big data analytics and everything that has to do with law enforcement and the criminal justice system (predictive policing, offender risk assessments, surveillance...). For the past year I've been working on international projects (usually funded by national governments or organizations like the EU and NATO) where I do the legal side (compliance, human rights, impact assessments...) and help the coordinators and technical partners to be legally compliant. Basically, I'm part of the people who get called in as legal experts by the likes of Interpol, Airbus, IBM, Scotland Yard and such to help them develop new technologies and initiatives that are ethical and don't screw with people's rights. So I write and publish a lot of papers and research for that and, since I'm partly joined to a law school & research center, I occasionally give lectures, seminars and grade Master's theses for advanced students.
561
« on: June 27, 2018, 10:47:22 AM »
I care about you my man, don't worry.
I appreciate that
did you get your PhD yet?
Nah, won't be for a while. I haven't even been able to really to do much for it. I was at the European Commission HQ this Monday to finally close a project on government surveillance and preventing terrorism. This has been my main task for the past year and a half so I'm stoked to be done with it. I'm starting a new project on predictive policing now but should have more time to finally submit a proposal and get it approved. It's a pretty lengthy process to even get approval to start a PhD in my field and on the topic I'm working on. Things haven't been bad though. I've published several articles in peer reviewed journals and got to travel to present my work at several conferences. I was just in Athens last month so that's all pretty sweet stuff. How have you been?
562
« on: June 27, 2018, 08:12:24 AM »
I care about you my man, don't worry.
563
« on: June 25, 2018, 05:10:23 PM »
I'm not referring to any new regulations specifically. I've just heard that some US based news sites have recently blocked access to EU nations.
It's not surprising to me that many sites are collecting data on their users and would rather block access than to stop. It's even less surprising that it would be news agencies struggling to maintain relevance in the age of the internet.
Yeah, I know you weren't referring to a specific law. I'm just clarifying that the reason some sites have blocked European users has nothing to do with what this thread is about. I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea and think the block you mentioned is related to this copyright proposal. And I'm expecting the US to slowly start adopting similar rules. Privacy and data protection are starting to draw more attention in the states as well. The mess with interference in the presidential elections, the Facebook / Cambridge Analytica scandal, the frequent high level data leaks... I recently got to talk about this with the former head of privacy and legal affairs of the US Homeland Security and she says we're seeing a bit of an opinion shift among American people. Many are starting to realize that the lack of regulation can cause serious issues especially now that they see that all of the large companies are fine with giving Europeans more protections but don't do the same for Americans.
564
« on: June 25, 2018, 02:12:13 PM »
Apparently a few US based news sites have already blocked access to European countries.
Pretty sure that's completely unrelated.
What is it related to?
I think you're referring to the GDPR that came into effect last month. It has nothing to do with copyright but is about data protection instead. It's a Regulation with an extraterritorial scope of application meaning that companies processing personal data belonging to Europeans have to comply with the rules even when they are based outside of Europe. Non-compliance can result in hefty fines so some American-based companies have decided to simply block European IP addresses altogether. If you're American, these sites should concern you greatly. Most of the GDPR really is not all that difficult to comply with. It provides the data subjects (you) with some rights and ways of enforcing them (request that your data is deleted, receive information about what data is saved, what it will be used for and who has access to it...) and subjects the data controllers (the sites / services / companies) to certain obligations (don't use the data for purposes you didn't gather it for, delete data when it's no longer necessary, get informed consent of your users, implement security measures, don't keep sensitive information when it's not relevant...). The fact that these sites would rather block an entire continent rather than protect the privacy of its users and not track you with invasive cookies, create a profile or exactly who you are and what you do, and then sell it to anyone with an interest should be an alarm bell going off. They're probably up to some pretty shady shit they know they couldn't get away with.
566
« on: June 24, 2018, 11:41:38 PM »
Apparently a few US based news sites have already blocked access to European countries.
Pretty sure that's completely unrelated.
567
« on: June 23, 2018, 05:02:22 PM »
Belgium doing very well. Nice games so far.
568
« on: June 23, 2018, 09:51:57 AM »
Just gotta clear something up about net neutrality. The date of the FTC vote is not when the changes come into the effect. Net neutrality's repeal in the US didn't happen until just two weeks ago (June 11th).
k
Just saying. Facts matter. Net neutrality has been gone for not even 2 weeks so it's important not to assume that everything's fine (yet).
If anything hopefully the lack of net neutrality will override EU laws.
Fucking ilermaty at it again...
569
« on: June 23, 2018, 08:34:32 AM »
Just gotta clear something up about net neutrality. The date of the FTC vote is not when the changes come into the effect. Net neutrality's repeal in the US didn't happen until just two weeks ago (June 11th).
k
Just saying. Facts matter. Net neutrality has been gone for not even 2 weeks so it's important not to assume that everything's fine (yet).
570
« on: June 22, 2018, 09:57:04 PM »
Just gotta clear something up about net neutrality. The date of the FTC vote is not when the changes come into the effect. Net neutrality's repeal in the US didn't happen until just two weeks ago (June 11th).
And I gotta clear up that you need to go to bed fucker it's 4 am over there
5am. Bye bye. 
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