Not sure if many people are opposed to climbing Everest per se, but there are some decent practical complaints to how it's currently being handled. Increased amounts of people climbing has turned into a queue of people all the way to the top, the increasing accomodations are making it so that people climb the mountain with a handful of personal guides holding their stuff and basically carrying them to the top, and the increased traffic along with extreme conditions are damaging the mountain. It's almost impossible to remove objects, so it's littered with trash, human waste and equipment.

I have nothing against it (a friend of my father's is currently training to climb it himself), but I can see why some are opposed to how it's currently being handled and how it negatively affects the mountain and the sport of climbing.

Disappointment.

Quote from: Flee on June 29, 2016, 06:05:13 AM

Quote from: challengerX on June 29, 2016, 05:26:42 AM

It may be inadvertently good for the remain campaign, but the campaign is over at this point. There won't be a second referendum. It doesn't really matter at this point.

A second referendum was never really the point or the goal. It was for this referendum to be taken for what it was always intended to be. A non-binding and purely advisory insight into how the British feel about the current British membership of the EU. The realistic people who still support Remain don't really want another vote, as they know it's a folly. They want the conclusion to be drawn that neither option has sufficient support to be pushed through. That half the people are adamant about staying in the EU while the other half is not happy with the current situation of Britain's membership. That this should mark an agreement of "okay, after months of two propaganda fueled campaigns just trying to make people to vote X or Y, neither group has succeeded at convincing the general public. A lot of people are unhappy with how things are now, but half the population doesn't want out of the EU. We now need to get out of the campaigning mindset and actually look for solutions and reform."

Maybe I read it wrong, but from an article I skimmed the other day Junker said there will be no reforms for the UK.

Not entirely. Juncker really doesn't hold any power when it comes to this, as the Council and Commission are two entirely separate entitites and he has no say over what is negotiated in the Council. And what he said was that there wouldn't be a new, better deal for the UK, meaning that he doesn't want to give them any more of a special status in the EU. Actual reforms of the actual Union itself and some of the aspects eurosceptics take issue with are not unlikely at all. With increasing euroscepticism in many European countries, Britain should choose to use its position in the EU not to get itself a better deal but to lead larger reforms of the Union. And if that wouldn't work, leaving would still be on the table just the same.

It may be inadvertently good for the remain campaign, but the campaign is over at this point. There won't be a second referendum. It doesn't really matter at this point.

A second referendum was never really the point or the goal. It was for this referendum to be taken for what it was always intended to be. A non-binding and purely advisory insight into how the British feel about the current British membership of the EU. The realistic people who still support Remain don't really want another vote, as they know it's a folly. They want the conclusion to be drawn that neither option has sufficient support to be pushed through. That half the people are adamant about staying in the EU while the other half is not happy with the current situation of Britain's membership. That this should mark an agreement of "okay, after months of two propaganda fueled campaigns just trying to make people to vote X or Y, neither group has succeeded at convincing the general public. A lot of people are unhappy with how things are now, but half the population doesn't want out of the EU. We now need to get out of the campaigning mindset and actually look for solutions and reform."

That's it? This is the big New World Order superstate obliterating national sovereignty we've been hearing so much about?

Suggestions for further contributions to an already existing military structure on a completely voluntary basis?
Harmonization of national criminal law provisions, which has been going on for literally decades?
Expansion of the EMU to common tax policies in certain fields?

For all the flack Remain has gotten for fearmongering, Leave has been equally guilty of it.

A first problem would be that populism is very hard to define. There's dozens of political scientists out there with their own definition of populism and from what I've come to understand, it's interpreted quite differently in other cultures and languages. In the strictest sense, there's nothing wrong with it. Supporting the people against the corrupt elite and all that.

The problem lies more with the tactics being used that are almost inherent to populism. Deliberately targeting the uneducated with waves of propaganda. Manipulating the complaints of the disenfranchised to serve particular interests. Relying primarily on misinformation and misleading claims to gain support. Oversimplifying complex and multifaceted issues into biased and one-sided snippets of inadequate information. Waging a figurative war on all those who disagree by painting them as elitist bureaucrats looking to keep the pure people down. Deliberately ignoring evidence to the contrary and making bold claims and problems on things known to be nearly impossible. Supporting what at first sight appears to be true according to the gut feeling of the least qualified to judge an issue while dismissing the well researched and substantiated findings of highly qualified experts with years of experience.

Additionally, it is typically opposed to all institutions of power, checks and balances, human and civil rights and so forth. Way too often, it is a movement aimed at using misleading claims and misinformation to convince the gullible and uneducated that their complaints will disappear if only the distant and unreachable elite keeping the common man down is taken care off and both expertise and knowledge make way for the impressions of poorly qualified men, only to then replace them with equally distant and unreachable men of their own.

And none of that is something I could ever support. As this is clearly inspired by the Brexit debacle, I must say that I have gained considerable respect for EU officials for their actions.

Quote from: Flee on June 27, 2016, 06:10:25 AM

Quote from: MemesAreFunny69 on June 26, 2016, 11:48:31 PM

Quote from: ねこ on June 26, 2016, 01:11:44 PM

Quote from: MemesAreFunny69 on June 26, 2016, 10:02:03 AM

Think I might jump on quake live too tbh.

If you do, do you want to be my practice buddy so we can destroy flee?

Link me to your profile I'll add you when I get it tomorrow. Should be fun fam

Link me yours as well, I'll add you too.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/jermis1995

Added.

Quote from: Flee on June 27, 2016, 10:25:51 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on June 27, 2016, 10:20:25 AM

Quote from: Flee on June 27, 2016, 09:52:07 AM

Gotta say that those numbers aren't generally accepted though. A Survation poll conducted yesterday found that 7% of Leave voters regretted voting the way they did. Not that there's some very large chunk of Leavers now regretting their vote, but to suggest that it's only 1% who are having second thoughts while there's much more happy Remainers might not be accurate.

I'm getting my data from an Ashcroft poll.

Source? I also don't see why it would be any better than those of other independent polling agencies, especially given Ashcroft's known pro-Leave tendencies.

I'm not saying it is; I was just making it clear where I was getting my information from. Let me see if I can find it in my history.

Sure, but you don't have to. I never meant to imply that you were talking out of your ass or making unsubstantiated claims. My point just was that there's more than one survey out there, so saying that just 1% of Leavers are having second thoughts might not be entirely accurate when other polls find higher numbers than that.

Gotta say that those numbers aren't generally accepted though. A Survation poll conducted yesterday found that 7% of Leave voters regretted voting the way they did. Not that there's some very large chunk of Leavers now regretting their vote, but to suggest that it's only 1% who are having second thoughts while there's much more happy Remainers might not be accurate.

Quote from: Flee on June 26, 2016, 05:41:54 PM

Quote from: ねこ on June 26, 2016, 01:11:44 PM

Quote from: MemesAreFunny69 on June 26, 2016, 10:02:03 AM

Think I might jump on quake live too tbh.

If you do, do you want to be my practice buddy so we can destroy flee?

Please do.

I'm terrified of how excited you are.

Very first game in months. Playing Quake always feels like coming home.

Quote from: MemesAreFunny69 on June 26, 2016, 11:48:31 PM

Quote from: ねこ on June 26, 2016, 01:11:44 PM

Quote from: MemesAreFunny69 on June 26, 2016, 10:02:03 AM

Think I might jump on quake live too tbh.

If you do, do you want to be my practice buddy so we can destroy flee?

Link me to your profile I'll add you when I get it tomorrow. Should be fun fam

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198129228603
Flee should add me as well since he hasn't done it yet

Just accepted your invite.

I love how david cameron just won the game of thrones. If his succesor goes forth with A50, his career is fucked. If he doesn't, he's fucked, and if he steps down he's fucked.

Well played Cameron.

I've actually started thinking the same. With everything going on right now, the longer it takes for the formal withdrawal to be made, the less likely it is Brexit will actually happen. Labour failing, Tories splitting internally and a lot of (parliamentary) opposition against formally concluding the withdrawal... Cameron's resignation might turn out to be an amazing tactical call.

Stay mad,  Flee

I'm honestly as non-mad as possible. Disappointed with the vote, sure, but it ultimately won't affect me much. This was just a poor attempt at a joke.

Quote from: MemesAreFunny69 on June 26, 2016, 10:02:03 AM

Think I might jump on quake live too tbh.

If you do, do you want to be my practice buddy so we can destroy flee?

Please do.

Did I find myself on the side of those who have expressed overly populistic and anti-intellectual attitudes? Yes. Does populism and anti-intellectualism define the Leave campaign? No, and you do a disservice to those of us (including, funnily enough, intellectuals) who voted Leave for reasons other than blind ignorance.

I don't think it defines the campaign, but I do believe it dominates it and is the primary reason it succeeded. Leave did not win because of genuine and sound reservations against "ever closer union". It didn't get a majority vote because of intellectuals worried about the eurozone and closer fiscal harmonization. It won because of the largely uneducated being "sick of experts". And that isn't to say that those voting Remain all have a thorough understanding of the EU, its relationship with the UK and the full consequences of a decision. But it does have me believe that anti-intellectualism and populism do dominate the Leave campaign and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.

If we're going to judge the campaigns by their worst elements, I could have a lot to say about the way Remain ran their campaign.

Absolutely, Remain fucked up their campaign big time and I don't condone many of the things it did. It was way too reactionary (being more concerned with addressing Leave claims than making their own), paid too much attention to how bad it would be for the UK to leave the EU rather than highlighting the benefits of being a member of the EU (especially for the working class things like subsidies, consumer / employee protection and product standards would've been very relevant) and ostracised Leavers by dismissing their concerns as nothing but racist and stupid. This should've been done a lot better and significantly more attention should've been paid to actual grievances of the people.

To suggest that my vote is a vote for anti-intellectualism--however unintentionally--is to judge me guilty by association. Which, given that a whole country was basically split into halves, is not at all difficult to do.

Like you, I realize that what I said might have been too forceful, but I don't think I was wrong.

A main problem is that despite this being a referendum on a single issue, this ultimately is anything but that. This goes far beyond the mere question of whether the UK should be part of a particul international organization. And looking at what's currently going on in British government, that really shows. Prime ministers resigning, shadow cabinets disbanding, votes of no confidence, parties splitting internally, parts of the country talking about independence, parliaments saying they won't support a formal Brexit motion... This affects just about every aspect of politics. Economics, budgets, human rights, employment law, product standards, free movement, environment, international cooperation, security, education, research, immigration, borders... All of it is affected by the outcome of this vote and what happens next.

So I don't consider you guilty by association, but I do think that this was somewhat predictable. People like you are a tiny minority. From what I've seen, your reasons for voting Leave are not at the core of the campaign. They're just a small part of it, tagging along for the ride. And while your decision for Leave might be sound (which I don't agree with, but that's subjective), your vote ultimately got grouped in with millions of people who stand for something you don't seem to agree with. Now I might be wrong on this, because I obviously don't know your opinion about everything, but it appears to me that your opinions are a lot more friendly towards a lot of the things the EU promotes.

On this single issue of whether the UK should be part of the EU as it all currently stands, you might prefer Leave, but I think that choice and vote ultimately support things you might disagree with, including the obscene degree of populism and anti-intellectualism that thrive within Leave. So while I don't think you're guilty of anything, I do believe your vote for the Leave campaign might have unwanted results. As contradictory as it might sound, I think the consequences of what is supposed to be a single-issue vote can affect a myriad of things in ways you would actually oppose and that you might find yourself thinking "I never wanted this" when politicians empowered by Leave actually put that anti-intellectualism and nationalism (if you can call it that) into practice. And that has been my fear for a long time now. That the people voting Leave for sound reasons might find that their vote will be used not just to accomplish a break from "ever closer union", but that it will be used as a weapon of populism to further play on the misguided fears of those who explicitly denounced experts and intellectualism.

I'm struggling to put this into words, so I apologize if this was poorly written. I guess my main point is that this referendum is likely to go far beyond the mere membership of an international organization and that it can affect just about every aspect of politics and public policy. And I fear that you, voting based on educated and properly informed reasons, might be part of a small minority in the Leave campaign and that your vote could now be used to support policies which might go against things you'd actually support.