Dark Souls Impressions - The FINAL Update

considering the signs and player interactions are incorporated into lore, it adds to it more than it takes away IMO. I'm halfway to agreeing because while it does break more vivid immersion in the gameworld, it creates a better connection emotionally with the game as it ties the worlds of players, and their experiences, together.

With how often people rave about how everything ties into the game's lore--even the player's own repeated deaths and failures--I'm surprised that players like me, who play offline, aren't worked into the lore somehow. Are they not?

To some degree comedy is based on deceit isn't it?
The surprise and punchline of a joke comes from something that contradicts one's expectations, doesn't it? At least to some degree.

This leads into asking what moral axioms don't extend into video games, obviously you've said before that killing another player without explicit consent is inherently immoral. But in response the only answer is that your consent is filed when you play the game human/embered. You hold the football, you get tackled. You weren't forced onto the field, you chose to play football.

"Immoral" is a crude word to use. I know I've used it in the past, but I'd like to shy away from it. At the end of the day, it's just a video game, so using strong words like that to describe player behavior seems a little inappropriate, if not melodramatic.

I think "courtesy" and "courteousness" are good words, so I'll use those instead. Do players have a responsibility to be generally courteous to others? I think so, yes. Am I a person who just exudes courteousness? Probably not, but that's not the point. Invading other players is not a courteous thing to do, so it should not be done. If you want to duel another player, you should ask them first. Indeed, you should be obliged to ask them first.

Your football example would've worked if I had any respect for football as a sport, which I don't. It's a horrible and borderline barbaric sport, and it's honestly disgusting to me that people like it so much. So, yes, while football players "consent" to being tackled, if we could find some kind of way to remove the possibility of getting physically injured while playing football, without compromising the game itself, you'd better believe we'd take it up.

The point is that you don't want to deal with invasions and other players opposing you, which is something made to be part of the game experience. You might hold anti-casual opinions on other things and just overall not actually be casual, but wanting the game to change to you because you don't want to deal with competitiveness off your own terms is trying to eliminate difficulties in the game, a casual leaning motive.

see, by taking this stance, though--where i basically say offline is the best way to play--i'm not only preventing invaders from invading me; i'm also preventing myself from receiving the benefits of co-op

which is a trade-off in and of itself, isn't it

that's pretty a neutral move, if you ask me--it's neither casual, nor hardcore

because i'm eliminating one difficulty (which isn't even a "difficulty" as much as it's an unnecessary inconvenience) while introducing a couple new ones that actually implicate me as a player, in terms of my skill

when you introduce bullshit like "oh, was that message telling the truth???" i think that just adds an unnecessary layer of bullshit, because it asks you nothing of your skill as a player, but of your faith in humanity, and whether you're willing to trust some random asshole on the internet

that's not "difficulty"--that's just gambling with people's trustworthiness

and so what if they mostly tell the truth--that just means people are walking you through the game, and that's lame as fuck

It's taken me this long to realize that 'slack knight' is a play on black knight...

It's taken me this long to realize that 'slack knight' is a play on black knight...

Coming up with punny titles is my favorite part of posting each update.

Any Souls fan would agree there's no right way to play the game. Tons of people play offline for the challenge of no summons or to avoid the online interactions. Verb's gone from hating the game to enjoying it with reservations against the online stuff, which a significant minority of the community agrees with. Who gives a shit if he's offline? Hell, he gets to avoid seeing all the stupid messages from players that think they're funny for writing stuff like "try tongue but whole" in front of bent over enemies.

I'm surprised that players like me, who play offline, aren't worked into the lore somehow. Are they not?

The lore is so ephemeral that it's really just an excuse for the "everything goes" attitude of the community. You could just make something up, like "your world exists on the fringe of others so you're unable to interact with fellow undead" or, "your character is more deeply afflicted by the curse of the undead and so he can't commune with other undead", bla bla bla. I'm sure some redditor has made something up about it.

I'm surprised that players like me, who play offline, aren't worked into the lore somehow. Are they not?

The lore is so ephemeral that it's really just an excuse for the "everything goes" attitude of the community. You could just make something up, like "your world exists on the fringe of others so you're unable to interact with fellow undead" or, "your character is more deeply afflicted by the curse of the undead and so he can't commune with other undead", bla bla bla. I'm sure some redditor has made something up about it.

I can get behind that.

TL;DR
A couple of my other Dark Souls-playing friends told me that co-op shouldn't ever be done, because it makes the game too easy, and that playing single player offline is the best way to go. To them, multiplayer takes from the spirit of the game, and the invasion system only serves to make the game more frustrating and less fun. What do you make of that?

Disagreed on the invasions, kinda agree on the co-op. PvP is by far one of the best things about the Souls games and hands down one of the most clever and innovative multiplayer systems I've ever seen. It's what keeps people pouring hundreds of hours into the games after having beaten it a dozen times and knowing everything there is to know. To me, it is the most challenging and fun part of the games.

Co-op, a little less so. I'm not going to rag on anyone for using summons to beat the game as they can play it however they want. That being said, it undoubtedly does make the game a lot easier. Another person to deal damage, help explore, bait out enemies and draw attention away from you helps out so much. I personally never summon anyone because I feel it detracts from the "real" experience and prevents you from overcoming obstacles at their best and most challenging. People also often use it for less than honest purposes and just summon a number of people to just wait and gang up on invaders instead of beating the area, which can both be incredibly fun and frustrating as an invader.

Pretty decent mechanic serving as good balance against invasions, but I wouldn't recommend it on your first playthrough as I do think it detracts from the game somewhat.

PvP is by far one of the best things about the Souls games and hands down one of the most clever and innovative multiplayer systems I've ever seen. It's what keeps people pouring hundreds of hours into the games after having beaten it a dozen times and knowing everything there is to know. To me, it is the most challenging and fun part of the games.

No, they're fine with PvP. They, like me, just hate the lack of consent involved. Otherwise, it's perfectly fine.

PvP is by far one of the best things about the Souls games and hands down one of the most clever and innovative multiplayer systems I've ever seen. It's what keeps people pouring hundreds of hours into the games after having beaten it a dozen times and knowing everything there is to know. To me, it is the most challenging and fun part of the games.

No, they're fine with PvP. They, like me, just hate the lack of consent involved. Otherwise, it's perfectly fine.

Fair enough. I think it's executed very well and that you consent to all aspects of the multiplayer by becoming human and accepting both the good and the risks that come with that choice, but that's something we've already discussed to death.

Fair enough. I think it's executed very well and that you consent to all aspects of the multiplayer by becoming human and accepting both the good and the risks that come with that choice, but that's something we've already discussed to death.

Of course, I haven't done any PvP yet, so I actually have a few questions about it.

Just how "deep" does it go, metagame-wise? Does Dark Souls have anything resembling a competitive scene, like Pokémon or Street Fighter? Do people hold Dark Souls PvP tournaments?

The only thing I know is that it's generally frowned upon to drink Estus during a "formal" duel, so I can only assume there are other stipulations as well. Is there any struggle or point to becoming "the best" Dark Souls PvP player ever, or is it just a matter of who has the bigger/stronger/faster weapon?

Just how "deep" does it go, metagame-wise?

The combat and mind game aspects go pretty deep. Some weapons are objectively better than others, but pretty much every build, weapon or playstyle is viable and valid. Not that it's some insanely deep and complicated system, but there is a pretty high skill ceiling.

Does Dark Souls have anything resembling a competitive scene, like Pokémon or Street Fighter? Do people hold Dark Souls PvP tournaments?

Not really, unfortunately. People sometimes host fight clubs or small tournaments, but they're nothing major at all. Dark Souls is a game that can be very competitive, but it was never designed with a real competitive scene in mind. A lack of LAN the host advantage online, the way "player pools" work and how it can be a real pain to match up with the people you want, the lack of customisable rulesets, the possibilities of abuse and no way to validate certain things (if the build is legit, if the levels are equal and so on) all make it very difficult. But if DS actually had like proper matchmaking for just 1v1 in an Arena where people start out from the main menu and go in on equal footing, I have no doubt it would actually be a very popular competitive game with an active scene and big tournaments.

The only thing I know is that it's generally frowned upon to drink Estus during a "formal" duel, so I can only assume there are other stipulations as well.

In Dark Souls 1, there is no way for invaders to heal with estus. They can only use healing miracles and humanities to replenish health, both of which are very slow and leave you wide open for attacks, and the cost of humanities being quite high. It's a big advantage the host has over the invaders, being able to heal and send the invader home by entering the boss arena.

But yeah, people often look down upon healers in "proper" duels. The way I look at it is that when people summon each other through a red summon sign (meaning that the host explicitly and directly consents to that particular invader coming into the game at that time by selecting "yes" on a prompt asking him if he wants to summon an invader), it's kind of supposed to be a an actual duel where running and healing is pretty lame and in bad taste. If during a random invasion, the host decides to bow at his opponent and makes clear they're going to duel, I also feel that healing is a bit cheap, but so be it. But during random invasions where it's the invader trying to fuck up the host? In that case the host should heal and do whatever he can to survive and win. Like I said, the host has a pretty big advantage over invaders and should do anything in his power to win.

Is there any struggle or point to becoming "the best" Dark Souls PvP player ever, or is it just a matter of who has the bigger/stronger/faster weapon?

Not at all the second. Dark Souls PvP is very much and almost entirely skill based. Some weapons just are better than others, but good players will beat bad players with everything. You also see this in videos of some of the well known "pro" players who stream and have youtube accounts dedicated to Dark Souls fights. Despite all of them being amazing players, they all use a wide array of different weapons ranging from heavy clubs to thrusting swords, greatswords, katanas, scimitars, spears, spells, axes, bows and so forth, using pure melee builds, hybrids, quality characters, pure dex / str, pyro, faith, magic and so on.  So it's generally well accepted that within each category of weapon, there are a few that stand out above the rest, but all categories are equally viable on their own, each with its own strengths and weaknesses.

Well, I'm done with exams now. Hope I did well.

I can finally start playing again, assuming this job hunt doesn't drag me down too much.

verb playin dark souls durin those real nigga hours

I have an update ready, but it's grotesquely long, so I'm trying to find a way to condense it.

I'm assuming it's standard procedure to write shit down as you play, right? I feel like there's so many areas I'm too weak to access right now. It's an interesting way of leading you in the right direction, but I feel like I'm gonna lose track of this shit.

@verb Contains clues about your progression - you probably shouldn't open this spoiler

I wonder at which point he realises that he is in a completely optional area (barring the fight against Sif, of course).

@verb Contains clues about your progression - you probably shouldn't open this spoiler

I wonder at which point he realises that he is in a completely optional area (barring the fight against Sif, of course).

Spoiler

I and a couple others, I think, have already pointed out that he needs to go to Blighttown next, but Darkroot is a pretty fun area to explore and it's light on enemies.

@verb Contains clues about your progression - you probably shouldn't open this spoiler

I wonder at which point he realises that he is in a completely optional area (barring the fight against Sif, of course).

Spoiler

Since Dark Souls is openly intricate and minimal on storytelling he may be there for a while. I wonder if he will find Ash Lake.

@verb Contains clues about your progression - you probably shouldn't open this spoiler

I wonder at which point he realises that he is in a completely optional area (barring the fight against Sif, of course).

Spoiler

I and a couple others, I think, have already pointed out that he needs to go to Blighttown next, but Darkroot is a pretty fun area to explore and it's light on enemies.

Spoiler

But he hasn't even beaten gargoyles yet, unless I somehow missed that.

you motherfuckers

you motherfuckers

Just don't forget to explore and backtrack when you feel it's getting too difficult. Unless I missed an update, you ignored the part you're 'supposed' to tackle by pushing ahead instead of looking back and around yourself.

you motherfuckers

Just don't forget to explore and backtrack when you feel it's getting too difficult. Unless I missed an update, you ignored the part you're 'supposed' to tackle by pushing ahead instead of looking back and around yourself.

nah, i think i got that covered--you'll see, maybe

i was more referring to that i had 4 or 5 new posts, and i can't read any of them lol
it's okay though, i appreciate the courtesy

@verb Contains clues about your progression - you probably shouldn't open this spoiler

I wonder at which point he realises that he is in a completely optional area (barring the fight against Sif, of course).

Spoiler

I and a couple others, I think, have already pointed out that he needs to go to Blighttown next, but Darkroot is a pretty fun area to explore and it's light on enemies.

Spoiler

But he hasn't even beaten gargoyles yet, unless I somehow missed that.

Spoiler

Oh, really? I thought he'd already rung the first bell. He said he got to Andre already, so I assumed he's finished the church area.

@verb Contains clues about your progression - you probably shouldn't open this spoiler

I wonder at which point he realises that he is in a completely optional area (barring the fight against Sif, of course).

Spoiler

I and a couple others, I think, have already pointed out that he needs to go to Blighttown next, but Darkroot is a pretty fun area to explore and it's light on enemies.

Spoiler

But he hasn't even beaten gargoyles yet, unless I somehow missed that.

Spoiler

Oh, really? I thought he'd already rung the first bell. He said he got to Andre already, so I assumed he's finished the church area.

Spoiler

I don't think so. That's why I suggested he doesn't stop backtracking and looking around. I think he found Andre and the bonfire before he explored the church and then just wandered off into the woods rather than go back and investigate.

<- Previous update: Slack Knight
Due to sheer length of content, I've decided to split this update in two halves. The second half will be posted later.

If I could direct your attention to the OP of this thread, you will find my stats & equipment from the very last time I played. So, if anyone's curious about what my stats are, what weapons I'm using, what level I'm at, etc. you can always just check the OP. You always could have done that, actually--but this time, I have a direct screenshot. Less work for me, more pleasing to the eye for you.


After I awoke from my month-long slumber, I made it back to the blacksmith, with all the spoils I gathered from the last update--plus a little more. At last, I bought the other smithbox I needed. That was the #1 thing on my to-do list, so now that I have both in my possession, I can finally start pushing forward.

Before I left the old church, however, I spotted something in the blacksmith's inventory that I had never noticed before: A Crest of Artorias, for 20,000 souls. If you recall from my test video, you'll remember that I happened across this large, mysterious door in the heart of Darkroot Garden--but I couldn't quite figure out how to open it. Well, it seems the old blacksmith was carrying its key the whole time.

This crest opens a door in the Darkroot Garden sealed by ancient magic.

The door leads to the grave of Sir Artorias the Abysswalker. Many adventurers have left for the grave, but none have returned, for they make easy prey for local bandits. With such dangers, the crest can do more harm than good in the hands of the uninitiated.

Seems right up my alley. But 20K souls?... That's a little bit more than I'm willing to sit and grind for. But perhaps, I thought to myself, there's some way I could speed up the process? I considered my options:

First, there's the Undead Parish. Heading backwards from where I traveled here would give me access to redcapes and many undead soldiers. Additionally, just outside the old church, there is what appears to be a large monastery. It previously housed a gargantuan knight, which I firebombed to death in Update #6. When I made my way inside the altar, I found a few redcapes, and a sorcerer who fired strong bolts of ice at me from above. It seemed too dangerous at the time, so I neglected venturing further. It might be time to visit it again.

Next, there's Darkroot Garden itself. The bush monsters, as annoying as they are, yield a pretty decent amount of souls--plus, I can't scratch the feeling that there's still plenty of unexplored territory here; I still need to find that hidden bonfire Turkey keeps mentioning, and in the Darkroot Basin, there is an elevator I've yet to use, inside of that cave where the bonfire is. I should try going down there. As for the giant stone knights and the ice golems... They can wait.

Finally, I have this urge to revisit the Undead Burg. Not only do I need to restock on some Firebombs--there are a lot of things I feel like I've neglected to do there. I look in my inventory, and I see a bunch of keys that I still haven't used yet, like this Mystery Key, and I seem to recall bumping into a few locked doors back in the Burg. I think it would really pay me handsomely to make the trek back over there again.

Hopefully, by the end of all this, I'll not only have collected enough souls for that Artorias Crest; I'll also have tied up all (or at least, most) of the loose ends in these areas I've yet to complete.


1. The Black Knight

Flee, after watching my black knight glitch video, made a few comments about my fighting style. Basically, he suggested that I experiment more with other weapons and strategies. My Winged Spear, while reliable, is overall inefficient for killing black knights, because of their strong armor. Two-handing a mace, such as my Morning Star, could get the job done faster--if I'm very careful.

In order to test that strategy out, I required another black knight to face. Fortunately, I left one behind in a tower in the Undead Parish, making him the perfect test target. He kinda fucked my shit up the last time I tried fighting him, though--that's why I just left him alone. That greatsword he had was the real deal--what it lacked in speed, it made up for in power and range. I'm gonna have to play to my outs if I wanna beat him.

I had to test out my Weapon Smithbox first, though. I had some Titanite Shards jangling around in my pocket, so why not? Unfortunately, reinforcing weapons and armor still costs you souls, even with the box. Eh, I guess it's just nice being able to do it at any bonfire. Anyway, naturally, I chose to reinforce my Winged Spear. Now it's a Winged Spear+1, which gives it a scrape more damage. Wanting to conserve souls, I didn't upgrade anything else.


To reach the knight's tower in the Undead Parish, I had to backtrack. Rather than getting annoyed about it, though, I tried to be positive and think of it more as an opportunity for me to hone my combat skills. Try out some new techniques, and discover some new areas, or things that I may have missed on my first go-around.

For example--since I was heading backwards, this gave me ample opportunity to teach myself how to backstab, since a lot of the enemies were facing the other direction. I've also begun to employ the shield-kick in my little gameplan. Initialy, I thought it was utterly useless--but after accidentally using it a bunch of times, I've gleaned it's function as a way to drain your opponent's stamina, which is actually very useful. I've also gotten better at rolling, backdashing, reading my opponent's movements, and even parrying. I'm getting good.

Most importantly, I'm beginning to block a lot more effectively--and it's all thanks to my new shield--the Grass Crest Shield--the one I picked up at the end of my last update. What it does is increase the rate at which your stamina replenishes when you aren't blocking. This allows you to act a lot faster during combat situations, because your stamina gauge fills back up almost instantly.

As I've been warned, holding up your shield for too long only drains your stamina faster. The less time you spend blocking, the less stamina you'll lose. From what I understand, it's to prevent overly-defensive play, so learning how to block effectively is integral. At first, this was a difficult system for me to get used to--but the Grass Crest Shield has really helped me out, because it encourages you to keep your shield down by rewarding you for doing so. Pretty awesome. The pretty green aura is a nice touch, too.

When I reached the black knight, it took me quite a few attempts to beat him. Two-handing the mace required me to forgo my shield, which meant that any hit I take will almost certainly lead to death--I could only take two hits before I bit the dust. Dodging his attacks was easy enough, but I had particular trouble avoiding his overhead slash. Not to mention--though the Morning Star was indeed doing more damage than the Winged Spear would have, it still wasn't doing a whole lot. It wasn't until I eventually upgraded to a Morning Star+2 that I was dealing ~30 damage per standard hit, ~80 per strong hit--which finally proved to be too much for him.

When he fell, I collected about 600 souls, some Titanite, and best of all: His shield.

It was a slow, incremental process beating him--but I gathered about ~4000 souls through the process, and I became a much, much stronger player as a result of going through the same area over and over. I was only level 17, but I was already feeling like a pro. It even got to a point where I could reach the knight's tower without even needing a drop of Estus, because I knew how to handle each and every enemy without taking a hit.

Also, I haven't talked about this very much, but I'm really beginning to see why everyone praises the map design so much. Every little area blends into each other in such elegant and clever (and often unexpected) ways. It all feels very fluid and seamless, unlike in most games, where the areas tend to be bluntly segmented and disjointed. Here, I love that feeling when I enter what appears to be a completely new location, only to open a door or something and be like, "Oh, this leads way back here!" Like, I honestly really love that. I got a taste of it again when I discovered how to open that gate in the parish, and I suspect the whole game is going to be like that.

You know what's funny? I just realized--as I keep "getting gooder," the game starts getting gooder, too.


2. Darkroot Basin Elevator

After killing the black knight, the next thing I wanted to do was go down that elevator in the Darkroot Basin. I didn't have the faintest idea what I'd find down there, but needless to say--given that you all already know--there wasn't anything for me.

It led to a new location called the Valley of Drakes.

One step out of the elevator gave view to a large bluish figure off in the distance--some kind of pygmy dragon. I gave it a closer look with my binoculars, and just stared hesitantly at it. After awhile, I said "fuck it" and tossed a firebomb at it. Pissed, it immediately attacked and started breathing bolts of lightning at me. I kept my distance, futilely trying to find some kind of opening--and figured that I ought to retreat.

Unsatisfied with my findings, I started hunting tree monsters in the forest to compensate, after which I wound up with a total of 6000 souls.

I visited Artorias's door again. I began to wonder if collecting 20K souls was even worth it at this point. Should I even worry about it right now? Out of boredom, I started tapping the R1 and R2 buttons, thinking about my next course of action while stabbing the air with my spear. I struck the door with it, wondering if striking walls damages weapons. I struck the wall immediately adjacent to the door--and, to my bewilderment, the wall disappeared, revealing the hidden bonfire I've been looking for. This is one of them illusory walls I've been hearing about.

I lit the bonfire immediately, and it was then that I decided my next move--I'm gonna tackle that monastery.

[tbc]

Oh, fuck, I forgot to mention--one of the times I lost to the knight, I respawned with 1 Humanity. For... some... reason.

I actually kept it this time, though.

Oh, fuck, I forgot to mention--one of the times I lost to the knight, I respawned with 1 Humanity. For... some... reason.

I actually kept it this time, though.

were you wearing a ring?

Oh, fuck, I forgot to mention--one of the times I lost to the knight, I respawned with 1 Humanity. For... some... reason.

I actually kept it this time, though.

Either you had equipped the ring of sacrifice - which I doubt you did - or you didn't notice the semi hidden mechanic that causes you to acquire soft humanity (number on the upper left).

Explained

If you earn a certain amount of souls from enemies in an area you get soft humanity - it's noticeable because the souls that follow you have a slightly darker shade.
You can get 10 humanities this way in every area - the required amount of  souls gets bigger for each humanity.

Because the only way of keeping soft humanity after death is by wearing the ros.

As for the giant stone knights and the ice golems... They can wait.

I'm both glad and disappointed that you didn't get far enough to see what really lurks down there. Having them wait a bit is probably not a bad idea.

For example--since I was heading backwards, this gave me ample opportunity to teach myself how to backstab, since a lot of the enemies were facing the other direction. I've also begun to employ the shield-kick in my little gameplan. Initialy, I thought it was utterly useless--but after accidentally using it a bunch of times, I've gleaned it's function as a way to drain your opponent's stamina, which is actually very useful. I've also gotten better at rolling, backdashing, reading my opponent's movements, and even parrying. I'm getting good.

Most importantly, I'm beginning to block a lot more effectivel

You make me proud, Verb.

Not to mention--though the Morning Star was indeed doing more damage than the Winged Spear would have, it still wasn't doing a whole lot. It wasn't until I eventually upgraded to a Morning Star+2 that I was dealing ~30 damage per standard hit, ~80 per strong hit--which finally proved to be too much for him.

Yeah, this is deliberate. The differences between weapons are not that big early on but increase by a lot once you upgrade them more. For example, the difference between a +1 winged spear and +1 mace on a certain enemy won't be as big as it would be trying to use a +10 winged spear and +10 mace on the same type of knight near the end of the game. It encourages experimentation early on and manifests in more different playstyles later in the game.

Also, I haven't talked about this very much, but I'm really beginning to see why everyone praises the map design so much.

You're about to come upon one of the best aspects of that. It made my jaw drop when unlocking a certain shortcut in the area you're at now and realizing where it ended up and how nicely everything ties together.

This is one of them illusory walls I've been hearing about.

The best thing about them is that most of them can be discovered by paying close attention. For example, if you would have stood near the edge of the drop in front of the wall and angled your camera a bit, you can peer around the corner and see the bonfire behind it. Others will have slightly different shades, show up at very obvious places or have some sort of marking that sets them apart from other parts of the environment. Constantly thinking about your surroundings will help a lot, as I've found illusory walls myself by just going "wait a minute, shouldn't there be another room between here and the outside wall due to what I know about the layout of the building?". It's good shit.

Keep at it.

were you wearing a ring?

Not the Ring of Sacrifice.

were you wearing a ring?

Not the Ring of Sacrifice.

Do you mean that you kept in the sense of you managed to recover your souls and therefore didn't lose it, or in the sense of "I died and respawned with a 1 in the top corner". Because the second shouldn't happen at all.