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I actually laughed.
i mean yeah, it's pretty funny that i have to explain this stuff

do you need your biological impulses to tell you when to eat, or do you think you can you figure that out yourself


 
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lmao people get schizophrenia because they're weak willed bro

If u had Verbatim's force of will psychosis would just go away

modern studies seem to point toward dopamine?
dopamine inhibitors are an effective treatment of schizophrenia and other psychoses?

no dude they're just not organizing their brains well enough

if they were smarter they wouldn't have such disorganized minds
i don't remember saying shit about schizophrenia

if you forgot, this is about breaking the interdependence of physical and mental health on the basis that they have no logical correlation, and that i'm capable of differentiating between logically-induced positive moods and biologically-induced positive moods, and recognizing that the former is intrinsically more meaningful to me

i'm sorry if you're not capable of doing that, i guess? but i am
Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 08:26:22 AM by Verbatim


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I actually laughed.
i mean yeah, it's pretty funny that i have to explain this stuff

do you need your biological impulses to tell you when to eat, or do you think you can you figure that out yourself
I eat when my stomach feels empty, not when I'm in the mood to eat, and not when I've waited so long to eat that my blood sugar has gotten low and adversely affected my temperament (which is something that happens to you, and if you say it doesn't because you elect not to be more on edge, you're just fooling yourself). I don't really derive joy from eating unless it's a particularly tasty piece of food. A delight for the senses. The type of negative feeling you're talking about invoking, as a refusal to feel joy, has absolutely nothing to do with a poor temperament from low blood sugar,and tbh it would be pretty fuckin weird if you did feel joy every time you ate. Less of a mental triumph, more just self deprecating meditation.

So I'm not sure what your whole deal here is. You're saying that all that energy you're devoting to forcing yourself not to be in a bad mood wouldn't be better spent on something else if your blood sugar wasn't low and your healthier more balanced body and mind was managing that subconsciously? And are you saying that since you make yourself feel bad about eating that your stomach doesn't feel full? Because that's the other side of the argument you've been completely ignoring. That if you do well by your body, it will literally feel better all the time.


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lmao people get schizophrenia because they're weak willed bro

If u had Verbatim's force of will psychosis would just go away

modern studies seem to point toward dopamine?
dopamine inhibitors are an effective treatment of schizophrenia and other psychoses?

no dude they're just not organizing their brains well enough

if they were smarter they wouldn't have such disorganized minds
i don't remember saying shit about schizophrenia

if you forgot, this is about breaking the interdependence of physical and mental health on the basis that they have no logical correlation, and that i'm capable of differentiating between logically-induced positive moods and biologically-induced positive moods, and recognizing that the former is intrinsically more meaningful to me

i'm sorry if you're not capable of doing that, i guess? but i am
do you not understand, based on the text you just read, that schizophrenia, and other mental illnesses, are caused imbalanced brain chemistry, and your assertion of being able to ignore that by just thinking about it logically would obviously also apply to mental illness if it were true at all

also, this is not the first time I have mentioned mental illness or even schizophrenia itself in this thread

I also mentioned that healthy eating and exercise habits reduced the severity of symptoms

you aren't capable of anything you think you are. when your brain gets dopamine you feel something, and you can't logic your way around feeling it, or decide to ignore that feeling because it's literally happening to you and you have no choice but to feel it

if you take wellbutrin, you'll notice you're incapable of feeling bad, and this is from personal experience

you can think to yourself "I'm such a piece of shit" and go through all the motions to try and make yourself miserable in your mind, but you literally cannot stop feeling good, because you have been stripped of the ability to feel like shit

it doesn't matter what you value or what you think, when the drugs (hormones) hit they hit, and you can't just willpower your way into being sober (not happy) by thinking about it logically, because your brain is a physical organ that feels the things it's told to feel by your body

when you think negative thoughts, you're not creating some mental cloud in which you control your feelings, you're just decreasing the stimulus to the part of your brain responsible for dopamine or serotonin creation (and if something else is actively stimulating that part of your brain its going to be very hard, usually impossible to destimulate it)

these things that you think are in your control are actually exactly the same as the things that aren't, and that's why it's so ridiculous to claim you have the power to force a change over something that you are literally powerless against

but please, like I said about all that energy devoted to not being on edge when your blood sugar drops, go on, get fit and then spend every moment of every day meditating on negative thoughts until you're no longer in shape

eventually you're going to get distracted and just start feeling good again, and after a few days you're going to forget about your negativity project altogether and enjoy the boon to your mental well-being until you're unhealthy again
Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 08:51:48 AM by Solonoid


 
Verbatim
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So I'm not sure what your whole deal here is. You're saying that all that energy you're devoting to forcing yourself not to be in a bad mood wouldn't be better spent on something else if your blood sugar wasn't low and your healthier more balanced body and mind was managing that subconsciously? And are you saying that since you make yourself feel bad about eating that your stomach doesn't feel full? Because that's the other side of the argument you've been completely ignoring. That if you do well by your body, it will literally feel better all the time.
"making myself feel bad about eating" is kind of a silly way to put it—how i feel about eating, outside of biological impulse, is more of a byproduct of the depressing logical conclusions that i've spent years contemplating

anyway, the point of the example was to show you my thought process, because the way i think about eating is directly analogous to the way i think about pretty much everything else you can think of that induces what i just termed as "biologically-induced positive moods"

any activity that induces BIPM is something i'm capable of mentally stepping away from, and acknowledging that it's just brain chemistry rewarding me for doing things that i, as an individual, do not value on a personal level—the LIPMs, the rescuing of the cat from the tree, or the helping of the old lady across the street and shit? those are the only positive moods that i see value in, because they actually involve doing good things for people in the real world

you're not just lifting something 100 times for no reason, or putting a burger inside of your face

BIPMs naturally include things like exercise, eating meals, or that vague "feeling-better-all-the-time" state that you described, which i would personally prefer to label as "not feeling like shit"

not feeling like shit is certainly positive, in the sense that it's not negative, and i can't deny this—but it is not positive in and of itself, which is why i don't value it as much as giving somebody a compliment and making their day better because of it, or helping somebody with their homework

you might notice a theme with the things i value—they all involve more than just one person's self-indulgence


 
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do you not understand, based on the text you just read, that schizophrenia, and other mental illnesses, are caused imbalanced brain chemistry, and your assertion of being able to ignore that by just thinking about it logically would obviously also apply to mental illness if it were true at all
i don't think i've ever claimed thus far that the ability to differentiate BIPMs from LIPMs cannot be inhibited by extreme mental illnesses, and if i have, then i retract those statements

my point is that they can in fact be differentiated, and that my ability to do so hasn't been inhibited
Quote
you aren't capable of anything you think you are. when your brain gets dopamine you feel something, and you can't logic your way around feeling it, or decide to ignore that feeling because it's literally happening to you and you have no choice but to feel it
but what i can do is acknowledge the authenticity and value of these feelings

i can recognize that dopamine-based emotionality as a whole is total horseshit—a primitive farce of human neurochemistry—and that there's such a concept as earning happiness—and i don't care about unearned happiness

the happiness i achieve through having a good meal is unearned happiness, and i don't care about it, because there's nothing intrinsically valuable about having a good meal, because i'm not starving

saving a cat from drowning? sure, you've earned that dopamine. you've done something good, so you deserve to feel very happy about it
Quote
if you take wellbutrin, you'll notice you're incapable of feeling bad, and this is from personal experience

you can think to yourself "I'm such a piece of shit" and go through all the motions to try and make yourself miserable in your mind, but you literally cannot stop feeling good, because you have been stripped of the ability to feel like shit
jesus christ
why in the holy mother of fuck would anybody ever want this in the first place

Quote
it doesn't matter what you value or what you think, when the drugs (hormones) hit they hit, and you can't just willpower your way into being sober (not happy) by thinking about it logically, because your brain is a physical organ that feels the things it's told to feel by your body
i can do the same thing

it doesn't matter how a drug makes you feel; when logic hits, it hits, and you can't just hap-hap-happy your way into being right (not wrong) by thinking about it emotionally, because your feelings are just chemical sensations that intrude and obfuscate the logical part of your brain, but do not and cannot overpower logic itself, because logic is more powerful than your feelings

this isn't very constructive
Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 09:25:29 AM by Verbatim


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Long live NoNolesNeckin.

Ya fuckin' ganderneck.
Your mental state can be negatively affected simply by having too much or too little of certain vitamins, or just having a poor gut micro-biome. You don't have to have a chronic condition. If fact research over the last few years has shown that depression and diet are often linked, and even just taking probiotics has helped people just as well as taking anti-depressants.

If you just don't take care of your body at all, then it won't be able to function properly. You'll have greater levels of pain, increased fatigue, imbalanced hormones, a myriad of various issues that aren't going to be overcome until you actually start to take care of your body.
again, you're cheating the argument

obviously, if you're in the hole, there's nowhere else to go but up—but that's not the conversation

when it comes to my fitness, i'm not in any sort of hole right now, so this doesn't even apply to me
I'm not talking about whatever your current condition is. I'm talking about being genuinely unhealthy. If you aren't experiencing any of the issues I listed then I would not define you as having poor health. But if you don't at least make some attempt to take care of your body then it's inevitable that you will end up with one or more of these issues.

It's your body, you treat it how you want to. I just don't believe you're going to have lasting happiness if you don't take care of it.


 
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I'm not talking about whatever your current condition is.
i am

Quote
I just don't believe you're going to have lasting happiness if you don't take care of it.
there are far more valuable things in life to be happy about anyway

if i could rip my essence from my body and just live as an amorphous floating point in space, i would

that's what i think about my body


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If you bend your mind towards the challenge, the skill will follow in your hands
Oh lol, this thread grew into 3 pages without me noticing it. Wow, oh well.

Workout, huh? I do some pushups everyday everytime after I wake up. Living up to my childhood dream of becoming an coldblooded assassin.


 
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if i could rip my essence from my body and just live as an amorphous floating point in space, i would
that means you’re afraid of death
whatever fears of death i may possess are strictly biological; there's nothing rational about fearing death, unless you have some reason to believe that there's a hell, and that you're going there or something
Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 04:38:00 PM by Verbatim


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Your spite is greater than your biology

Huge achievement
Great job


 
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Your spite is greater than your biology

Huge achievement
Great job
thank you


 
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if i could rip my essence from my body and just live as an amorphous floating point in space, i would
that means you’re afraid of death
whatever fears of death i may possess are strictly biological; there's nothing rational about fearing death, unless you have some reason to believe that there's a hell, and that you're going there or something
exactly, which means you can’t overcome certain biological impulses
even if that's true, it's not like that's any excuse to succumb to them

i think it's good enough to just try, because it affirms your agency


 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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Verbatim
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if i could rip my essence from my body and just live as an amorphous floating point in space, i would
that means you’re afraid of death
whatever fears of death i may possess are strictly biological; there's nothing rational about fearing death, unless you have some reason to believe that there's a hell, and that you're going there or something
exactly, which means you can’t overcome certain biological impulses
even if that's true, it's not like that's any excuse to succumb to them

i think it's good enough to just try, because it affirms your agency
then you should be able to accept that you can’t avoid “succumbing” to endorphins released through exercise and the positive effect they induce. Euphoria is no less real because it comes from an external stimulant instead of as a result of achieving a goal, for example. It would just be different in the sense that you don’t have the added feelings of pride and the satisfaction of achieving a goal, you simply used a substance to achieve it. It still feels good, and even if you try to make it not feel good, you can’t. So when it comes to your exercise, it should all be a positive for you, except the “waste” of time spent exercising. But how can you be wasting your time if you’re doing something productive which makes you feel better and become healthier, both physically and mentally?
let me try putting it this way

if i could harness the unwanted surplus of endorphins that i get from doing stupid or self-indulgent shit, bottle it up somehow, accumulate it over time, and then give it all to somebody who actually needs or wants them, that would actually make exercise good and meaningful to me, because i'm actually working towards something bigger and important than myself

i simply don't want to feel good if i don't feel like i've done anything to deserve it
Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 06:36:16 PM by Verbatim


 
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Verbatim
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what does “deserve” have to do with it?
exactly—it doesn't, and that's one of the biggest problems i have with reality

there's people in japan who literally drop dead trying to make an honest living so they can pursue their happiness, and then you have junkies who've never worked a day in their lives who cheat at life and feel good anyway for putting nothing in

so if deservingness has nothing to do with it, why bother earning anything in life? why not just be a druggie, then

and before you say it, i'm not trying to say that going to the gym is the same thing as abusing drugs—i'm just saying, going to the gym is just another form of mindless self-indulgence to me. it's gross, and i don't like anything about it

everyone deserves to be happy in a vacuum, but not in a world where everyone doesn't get to be happy
Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 07:13:01 PM by Verbatim


 
Verbatim
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it's not like i don't wish i could just put my hang-ups aside and be a happy little camper like everybody else about shit like this, but that's just not who i am—and if i can't be happy with my own happiness (assuming i achieve such a thing through exercise at all, and i haven't yet), then what's really the point

maybe for you, it's not that deep—happiness is happiness; it doesn't matter where it comes from, and you should either not think about it, or reject the mere thought that your emotions or thoughts could be layered or conflicting in any way

i find that mentality overly simplistic and potentially dangerous, and i think that's the impasse i've hit with you all
Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 07:35:42 PM by Verbatim


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what does “deserve” have to do with it?
exactly—it doesn't, and that's one of the biggest problems i have with reality

there's people in japan who literally drop dead trying to make an honest living so they can pursue their happiness, and then you have junkies who've never worked a day in their lives who cheat at life and feel good anyway for putting nothing in

so if deservingness has nothing to do with it, why bother earning anything in life? why not just be a druggie, then

and before you say it, i'm not trying to say that going to the gym is the same thing as abusing drugs—i'm just saying, going to the gym is just another form of mindless self-indulgence to me. it's gross, and i don't like anything about it

everyone deserves to be happy in a vacuum, but not in a world where everyone doesn't get to be happy

Maybe I've missed a finer line here, but your argument lies with the failure of human mechanisms rather than reality itself. Druggies exist because the drug pushers exist. They get a free ride through society only because society likes to think of itself as moral and tries to help these "poor" people. The very same can be said of the japanese worker who drops dead on the job. He dropped dead because he lives in a society and a culture that allows it to happen. Life itself didn't dictate that. People did. They made the decisions that led them to that end. Reality itself is actually very simple. Survive or don't. That's it. The complications of happiness and unhappiness arise only because people are idiots, and they build systems that needlessly complicate things and are built to be abused.

And if it's a question of deservingness? It's not. Nobody inherently deserves shit. Why bother earning anything then if deserving it isn't a factor? It's subjective to the individual who wants something. Everybody alive wants something by default. And as long as you're alive, you get what you want if you have the intelligence, the drive, and the necessary implements to achieve it. What you also get are the consequences that come with wanting anything and making the choices that lead to it.

For example, you say that druggies get a free ride. They "cheat." You're only looking at the very minimal positives he achieves. Handouts from society and powerful highs from drugs that only last for so long before his body's adaptive nature weakens the highs. In return for having the easy life what does he get? Addiction cravings, diseases, conditions, mental degredation, homelessnes. He inherits absolute despair and a self destructive spiral that only eventually leads to one end.

Druggies haven't cheated life. Not at all. If you've gone to any of the major cities out in the world and actually walked amongst their population, out in their hubs and major gatherings, you'd see that these people more often than not exist in a state of despair so deep that you can't even understand how they're alive. They live in a literal hell of their own making half the time.


 
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what does “deserve” have to do with it?
exactly—it doesn't, and that's one of the biggest problems i have with reality

there's people in japan who literally drop dead trying to make an honest living so they can pursue their happiness, and then you have junkies who've never worked a day in their lives who cheat at life and feel good anyway for putting nothing in

so if deservingness has nothing to do with it, why bother earning anything in life? why not just be a druggie, then

and before you say it, i'm not trying to say that going to the gym is the same thing as abusing drugs—i'm just saying, going to the gym is just another form of mindless self-indulgence to me. it's gross, and i don't like anything about it

everyone deserves to be happy in a vacuum, but not in a world where everyone doesn't get to be happy
how is exercising “mindless self-indulgence”?
because it's mechanical and repetitive behavior that provides zero benefits that are not entirely self-serving

that's like, the definition of mindless self-indulgence

literally the only practical purpose for it that i can think of is if you have a job that involves a lot of heavy-lifting—and guess what? i have absolutely no desire to ever get a job like this, so that's moot in my case, and even if i were interested, there's no reason i wouldn't just shoot for the bare minimum

everything else is vanity and bullshit
Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 10:21:25 PM by Verbatim


 
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Self-indulgence could be classified as hedonism. How is exercising hedonistic behavior? Even if you exercise solely to make yourself happy, your loved ones would benefit from your improved behavior.
i would only make that classification if pleasure is all you care about—you're not necessarily a hedonist just because you engage in self-indulgent behavior every once in a while

that doesn't make it intelligent behavior, i just think hedonism is taking it to another extreme that i'm not trying to argue

so how is your behavior tied to your physical well-being, how does exercise improve it, and how would your loved ones benefit from it
Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 10:46:20 PM by Verbatim


 
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Verbatim
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Self-indulgence could be classified as hedonism. How is exercising hedonistic behavior? Even if you exercise solely to make yourself happy, your loved ones would benefit from your improved behavior.
i would only make that classification if pleasure is all you care about—you're not necessarily a hedonist just because you engage in self-indulgent behavior every once in a while

that doesn't make it intelligent behavior, i just think hedonism is taking it to another extreme that i'm not trying to argue

so how is your behavior tied to your physical well-being, how does exercise improve it, and how would your loved ones benefit from it
Well it’s a fact that exercise improves mental health. But if you’re going to exercise, be bitter while you’re doing it, and then when you accomplish whatever goal you set out to accomplish use it to try and deny science, you’re just wasting your life. Everyone will know you’re lying and chalk it up to you just being you. Just like what happened with all that anime you watched, you ended up enjoying various shows.
do you think anomalies are unscientific or something

also thank you for admitting that exercise is a waste of life lmao
Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 11:31:40 PM by Verbatim


Spagelo | Respected Posting Spree
 
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Who was the fool that threw the basket in the pool?
I think that for something as complex as a human life, you can't really rely on extremes like modern takes on hedonism or stoicism completely, but take a little from each ideology and apply it to your own life with a sense of balance. When it's time to have fun, have fun. When it's time to get serious, get serious. There isn't any one way to live, there's just living.

It helps to know that the most prominent figures in the philosophical basis of these mindsets didn't advocate for extremes such as never laughing vs. masturbating seven times a day. Epicurus gave concessions to the fact that being happy wasn't just pure pleasure and needed to be worked towards, and Chrysippus is well-remembered for his death via suffocation due to laughter while on undiluted wine. Chrysippus also recognized the selfish nature of living beings, and his aforementioned hedonist contemporary left one of the most compelling arguments against the fear of death remaining from the ancient world.

Both of these people demonstrate that you need to consider the entirety of the human experience when you undertake the application of an idea, because ideas are only good when they translate efficiently into reality. You can't be perfect, and there's no use in being useless. So do your best, and don't expect to do better than that. People are like a kind of metal: we can take a lot of heat, but we'll start to melt down if we're never cooled.


 
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