Where the hell was this version of Hillary Clinton before?

Elai · October 09, 2018, 06:25:06 PM

YouTube

Damn. Straight-forward, confident, unapologetic. If I was an American and of age at the time, I would have supported her had I seen more of this. Hopefully if she runs again she can channel some of this.

Aether · October 09, 2018, 07:13:13 PM

Why? She's just another cookie cutter neo-lib warmonger. Democrats need an actual genuine leader that will push back against the corruption in US politics, one who will embrace left populist issues like ending the drug war, providing health care, sorting out the horrible student loan debt crisis here, and above all, ending these bullshit proxy wars the US keeps fighting in third world countries.

I'm not gonna hold my breath for anyone like that, however.

Elai · October 09, 2018, 07:57:16 PM

Quote from: Aether on October 09, 2018, 07:13:13 PM

Why? She's just another cookie cutter neo-lib warmonger. Democrats need an actual genuine leader that will push back against the corruption in US politics, one who will embrace left populist issues like ending the drug war, providing health care, sorting out the horrible student loan debt crisis here, and above all, ending these bullshit proxy wars the US keeps fighting in third world countries.

I'm not gonna hold my breath for anyone like that, however.

I'm just saying that if she had campaigned with this sort of spirit, she would have done a lot better. I think she would have made an aggressively average president, similar to Obama's first two years in office, but her campaign just had no idea what it was doing.

I would still prefer a more radical candidate like a Bernie Sanders, but I'd pretty much go with Emperor Kuzco over the Republicans right now.

Dietrich Six · October 09, 2018, 08:11:18 PM

Plug that book Hillary.

October 09, 2018, 09:37:15 PM

Hillary was awesome in 2016 and has been awesome her whole life. The backlash against her was pure misogyny.

Elai · October 09, 2018, 09:49:04 PM

Quote from: Carmen on October 09, 2018, 09:37:15 PM

Hillary was awesome in 2016 and has been awesome her whole life. The backlash against her was pure misogyny.

She could have been a more excitable candidate, though. Like all democrats she wasn't hardline enough. That's all I'm saying. I'd be happy to see her run again.

Aether · October 10, 2018, 03:15:54 PM

I would like to say that this tendency towards incivility in politics is an absolutely terrible idea in my eyes. Our society is becoming increasingly polarized and divided, and this idea that people should be uncivilized in their opposition is only going to exacerbate that.

Our civilization was beginning to overcome tribalism, but it looks like we're taking a good number of steps back in that regard, and it's just sad af.

I do think people should have the right to be uncivil, so long as they aren't violent, but I wish more would advocate for less vitriol towards their opponents.

Elai · October 10, 2018, 03:43:28 PM

Quote from: Aether on October 10, 2018, 03:15:54 PM

I would like to say that this tendency towards incivility in politics is an absolutely terrible idea in my eyes. Our society is becoming increasingly polarized and divided, and this idea that people should be uncivilized in their opposition is only going to exacerbate that.

That's an unbearably naive thing to say when one side was elected to run the country due to their incivility. When we have climate change and wealth inequality under control, then we can perhaps see a return to civil politics.

It'd be different if the disagreements between parties were things like what you think should be done about health food in schools or how much businesses should be paying taxes, not whether women have the right to abortion, or climate change is a hoax/is happening and there's nothing we can do about it so go ahead and pollute away.

Aether · October 10, 2018, 04:59:33 PM

Quote from: Eli on October 10, 2018, 03:43:28 PM

Quote from: Aether on October 10, 2018, 03:15:54 PM
I would like to say that this tendency towards incivility in politics is an absolutely terrible idea in my eyes. Our society is becoming increasingly polarized and divided, and this idea that people should be uncivilized in their opposition is only going to exacerbate that.

That's an unbearably naive thing to say when one side was elected to run the country due to their incivility. When we have climate change and wealth inequality under control, then we can perhaps see a return to civil politics.

It'd be different if the disagreements between parties were things like what you think should be done about health food in schools or how much businesses should be paying taxes, not whether women have the right to abortion, or climate change is a hoax/is happening and there's nothing we can do about it so go ahead and pollute away.

Why is it naive? How can you definitively say Trump was elected because of his incivility over his populist appeal through his policy? I've seen a great deal of people that have said they do not like his egotism and rudeness, but still voted for him because of policy.

I would say it's naive to assume that only one aspect of Trump was the major contributing variable to his election, and that the only way to win is to respond in kind.

I also think it's very foolish to throw away good values because the opposition is also throwing them away.

There are a lot of moderate people like me that are feeling disconnected from the current political and social climate who are longing for some sort of movement that isn't so tribalistic and hostile. Many on the left would call me a far right racist because I don't think mass immigration is a great idea, and many on the right would call me a cucked socialist soyboy because I think our government could find a way to provide everyone with health care. Why would I want to align myself with either of them? There are a ton of people in the center within society that are looking at both the left and the right at this time and thinking both sides are absolutely unappealing from all the hate and vitriol that's being espoused, and the violence taking place.

Elai · October 10, 2018, 06:06:22 PM

Quote from: Aether on October 10, 2018, 04:59:33 PM

Why is it naive?

I just explained why. The right wants to undermine the democratic values the US had traditionally stood for, destroy the planet, deny people healthcare, and increase the wealth gap between the upper and lower class.

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How can you definitively say Trump was elected because of his incivility over his populist appeal through his policy? I've seen a great deal of people that have said they do not like his egotism and rudeness, but still voted for him because of policy.

And plenty of people voted for his incivility and persona despite disagreeing with his policies. I just think it's obvious considering he never had a definitive platform for the majority of his campaign.

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I also think it's very foolish to throw away good values because the opposition is also throwing them away.

This is such nonsense. The other party that keeps "throwing away good values" is the one that's in power and is going to continue to degrade the country.

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Many on the left would call me a far right racist because I don't think mass immigration is a great idea, and many on the right would call me a cucked socialist soyboy because I think our government could find a way to provide everyone with health care. Why would I want to align myself with either of them?

Again, I just explained the things the right does that the left doesn't. Both sides are being fucking stupid I agree, but it's a false equivolency to say they're equally bad. The left is at worst, annoying. The right at worst, is dangerous.

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There are a ton of people in the center within society that are looking at both the left and the right at this time and thinking both sides are absolutely unappealing from all the hate and vitriol that's being espoused, and the violence taking place.

Now isn't the time for kumbaya. It's about getting a traitor out of the whitehouse.

Aether · October 10, 2018, 07:34:21 PM

Quote from: Eli on October 10, 2018, 06:06:22 PM

I assume you're a rational person with an ability to think critically, so why are you dealing in absolutes when it comes to the right? There may be politicians on the right that want essentially oppress others for their own personal gain, but there just as well can be and are those on the left who want to do the same. Nothing is so black and white. Focusing on each side as a collective instead of addressing people who identify with them as individuals isn't conducive to understanding the nature of each side with clarity.

Regardless, that position doesn't explain in any way how advocating for civility is somehow lacking in wisdom. You think it's because whichever side is uncivilized has an advantage over the side that isn't? I don't believe that at all for the very reason I laid out at the bottom of my post. All this hate and vitriol is radicalizing people at an alarming rate, driving away moderates who can help rein the radicals back in, and contributing to a growing divide within society that absolutely has the power to destabilize it, if history has taught us anything.

This isn't about some kumbaya cliche hippie nonsense, this is about upholding certain principles that make up the fabric of civilization. Responding to radicals by becoming radical in the opposite way may allow you to "win" against them for now, but what kind of society are you going to create in the process? And what is going to stop the other side from responding in kind and winning in the future?

These people that you seem to hate so much on the right, there are millions of them and they aren't going anywhere. Unless you want some violent authoritarian revolution in which you force them out of society, you have to deal with the fact that they are here and have the same power that you do to impact the way your country runs. Collectivizing them as scum of the earth instead of observing and confronting them as individuals isn't going to help sway anyone on their side, and more importantly it turns away moderates, who are more likely to see things your way, and can actually give your side a real advantage.

I don't expect that this is something we will come to an agreement on. It's really disheartening to see that so many on either side think this way.

Verbatim · October 10, 2018, 07:36:12 PM

More things are black and white than people would like to admit.

Elai · October 10, 2018, 08:01:58 PM

Quote from: Aether on October 10, 2018, 07:34:21 PM

Quote from: Eli on October 10, 2018, 06:06:22 PM
I assume you're a rational person with an ability to think critically, so why are you dealing in absolutes when it comes to the right? There may be politicians on the right that want essentially oppress others for their own personal gain, but there just as well can be and are those on the left who want to do the same. Nothing is so black and white. Focusing on each side as a collective instead of addressing people who identify with them as individuals isn't conducive to understanding the nature of each side with clarity.

Regardless, that position doesn't explain in any way how advocating for civility is somehow lacking in wisdom. You think it's because whichever side is uncivilized has an advantage over the side that isn't? I don't believe that at all for the very reason I laid out at the bottom of my post. All this hate and vitriol is radicalizing people at an alarming rate, driving away moderates who can help rein the radicals back in, and contributing to a growing divide within society that absolutely has the power to destabilize it, if history has taught us anything.

This isn't about some kumbaya cliche hippie nonsense, this is about upholding certain principles that make up the fabric of civilization. Responding to radicals by becoming radical in the opposite way may allow you to "win" against them for now, but what kind of society are you going to create in the process? And what is going to stop the other side from responding in kind and winning in the future?

These people that you seem to hate so much on the right, there are millions of them and they aren't going anywhere. Unless you want some violent authoritarian revolution in which you force them out of society, you have to deal with the fact that they are here and have the same power that you do to impact the way your country runs. Collectivizing them as scum of the earth instead of observing and confronting them as individuals isn't going to help sway anyone on their side, and more importantly it turns away moderates, who are more likely to see things your way, and can actually give your side a real advantage.

I don't expect that this is something we will come to an agreement on. It's really disheartening to see that so many on either side think this way.

It's just funny how you say in one thread (my other political thread in The Flood) that you care about the "here and now" or the reality of the situation, yet here you want to play around with idealistic nonsense. Yes, I'd love to return to how politics were conducted 30, 20, even 10 years ago. But when one side is not even on the same map as the other, there's nothing you can do to reach these people. People are being radicalised and yes that's a problem, but the BIGGEST problem we are facing is climate change and and the cyber invasion by the Russians, and the Republicans are doing nothing about either. We have some 60 years before Manhattan is underwater. Climate researchers stated recently that the first of many apocalpytic climate disasters could occur as soon as 2040. Think about that.

Aether · October 10, 2018, 08:37:31 PM

Quote from: Eli on October 10, 2018, 08:01:58 PM

Are you actually saying that the principle of civility and trying to maintain it is nonsense?

I am more of a here and now type of person and I understand that abandoning certain values within our society has grave consequences for it. Advocating for incivility has a very tangible effect that can be observed in real time. Trying to maintain civility is not some far off ideal that we can simply hope to achieve in the future, it's something that can absolutely be done here and now, and it will shape the way our society evolves.

There is no reason we cannot seek to solve issues like climate change without upholding the fundamental values of our society. You make it sound like the only way we can save ourselves is to tear down our current society for a more hateful and divided one, and that to me sounds absolutely horrible.

I think the more vitriol you have towards your opposition, the more they are going to push back and disregard what you are trying to warn them about. To me it looks like your incivility will only contribute to a failure to make genuine change. That is, unless you want to force change through authoritarian means and subvert the democratic values you were saying the right wants to do away with.

Elai · October 10, 2018, 09:00:52 PM

Quote from: Aether on October 10, 2018, 08:37:31 PM

Are you actually saying that the principle of civility and trying to maintain it is nonsense?

With the stakes as high as they are, we can't afford to be the good guys right now. We need to win. Not necessarily "by any means," but by actually standing up for things we believe in.

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You make it sound like the only way we can save ourselves is to tear down our current society for a more hateful and divided one, and that to me sounds absolutely horrible.

That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting we stop being the "nice guys" and win elections so we can actually do what needs to be done. We can't afford to be as naive as you're being. Drop yourself in Syria and try being civil with the ISIS, let me know how well that works for you.

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I think the more vitriol you have towards your opposition, the more they are going to push back and disregard what you are trying to warn them about.

Democratic politicians have been doing this for years and these dumbass rednecks don't listen. The majority of the country agrees with the Dems on most issues, they need to stop placating the cousin fuckers who elected Trump.

Aether · October 10, 2018, 09:43:29 PM

Quote from: Eli on October 10, 2018, 09:00:52 PM

Even besides trying to uphold the values of our civilization, incivility towards your opposition just isn't a good strategy. Look the point isn't to persuade "dumbass rednecks." You can't possibly believe that the entirety of the millions who voted for Trump are some idiot hillbillies. It's just not accurate in any sense.

One major key thing about Trumps incivility is who he targets and how his base feels about that. There are millions of moderate working class people in the US that have felt like their government has forgotten them for many years now. That the political class, as well as the media, have become highly elitist and smug, ignoring and neglecting their struggle.

Trump came in and acted like a total ass to these politicians and journalists. He played the role of the populist come to shake things up and stand for the average working citizen. Whether or not he was genuine doesn't really matter, it worked out very well for him as many moderates supported him when he seemed like the only person who would stand up for them at that time. He has a huge base and is continuously reinforcing the perception that his opposition is an elitist class that scoffs at the plight of his supporters, but not everyone that voted for him is so staunchly supportive of him, and I know many are hoping for a better candidate.

What is going to happen when you go after these people with hate and vitriol? How is blasting the voting base instead of trying to appeal to it going to get you the win? The left needs politicians who can show voters that Trump isn't good for the country while at the same time letting them know that it's okay that they voted for him, they were only doing what they thought was best for their struggles. That there is someone better now that will genuinely stand for them.

People don't remember your ideas so much as they remember how you make them feel, and if you make voters feel like they are morons then they aren't going to support you.

If you want to get rougher with the politicians and try to turn trumps strategy against him. To create the perception that his lot are the elitists and that you're here to shake things up, I'd say you have a difficult task ahead of you. But if you just want to shit all over the voters themselves then I'd say you're digging your own political grave.

Elai · October 10, 2018, 10:16:32 PM

Quote from: Aether on October 10, 2018, 09:43:29 PM

You can't possibly believe that the entirety of the millions who voted for Trump are some idiot hillbillies. It's just not accurate in any sense.

I didn't say that they were all dumbass rednecks. A lot of them were. The rest were other people swept up in the anti-establishment persona he had.

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What is going to happen when you go after these people with hate and vitriol? How is blasting the voting base instead of trying to appeal to it going to get you the win?

Well for one, I don't think Hillary Clinton is suggesting we go after anyone with hate and vitriol. I don't like people who support Trump, but I'm not a politician (or American for that matter.)

But the thing is, you can completely disregard Trump's base and still win an election. Like I said earlier, the majority of the country agrees with democrats on almost every issue. The problem is getting voters to turn out on election day. Which you can do by getting people excited, and Hillary Clinton isn't someone who did that. I don't think that'll be a problem this time, but I've seen some scary videos that make me think I'm wishfully thinking.

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People don't remember your ideas so much as they remember how you make them feel, and if you make voters feel like they are morons then they aren't going to support you.

That doesn't matter. Not only because of what I said above, but just think back at how Trump called the people of Iowa stupid, at an Iowa rally. You can call people stupid and degrade them and as long as you're general enough, people will think they are the exception.

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If you want to get rougher with the politicians and try to turn trumps strategy against him. To create the perception that his lot are the elitists and that you're here to shake things up, I'd say you have a difficult task ahead of you. But if you just want to shit all over the voters themselves then I'd say you're digging your own political grave.

I don't think many people want the political establishment "shaken up" after seeing what that looks like for the last two years. I've seen liberals yearn for the days of George Bush in the White House. But I think what you're describing is a Michael Avenatti-type candidate, which is why he's been getting a lot of exposure recently.

Aether · October 10, 2018, 10:48:17 PM

Quote from: Eli on October 10, 2018, 10:16:32 PM

People aren't going to consider themselves the exception when you degrade them for very specific actions, like supporting a movement or candidate. One of the main reasons Hillary's basket of deplorables comment was so damaging for her. You insult voters for who they're considering to vote for and it certainly isn't going to bring them over to your side, especially when your opponent is painting you as a condescending elitist. If Trump insulted average citizens then he made a big gamble in doing so and he's lucky it didn't backfire on him badly.

I don't know what candidate this country needs right now. I don't know much about this Avenatti guy besides him being a lawyer who is highly opposed to Trump. I just know that the next democratic candidate needs to appeal to the average citizen the way Trump was able to by embracing issues the average american citizen actually cares about (hopefully genuinely) instead of playing the game of identity politics, and they need to avoid upsetting the millions of voters who are currently torn over supporting a party that is perceived as elitist and uncaring of the working class.

challengerX · October 11, 2018, 12:03:06 PM

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Aether · October 11, 2018, 12:26:39 PM

Quote from: challengerX on October 11, 2018, 12:03:06 PM

Quote from: Aether on October 10, 2018, 10:48:17 PM
Quote from: Eli on October 10, 2018, 10:16:32 PM
People aren't going to consider themselves the exception when you degrade them for very specific actions, like supporting a movement or candidate. One of the main reasons Hillary's basket of deplorables comment was so damaging for her. You insult voters for who they're considering to vote for and it certainly isn't going to bring them over to your side, especially when your opponent is painting you as a condescending elitist. If Trump insulted average citizens then he made a big gamble in doing so and he's lucky it didn't backfire on him badly.

I don't know what candidate this country needs right now. I don't know much about this Avenatti guy besides him being a lawyer who is highly opposed to Trump. I just know that the next democratic candidate needs to appeal to the average citizen the way Trump was able to by embracing issues the average american citizen actually cares about (hopefully genuinely) instead of playing the game of identity politics, and they need to avoid upsetting the millions of voters who are currently torn over supporting a party that is perceived as elitist and uncaring of the working class.
Those people were never gonna vote for her. You’re just constantly talking out of your ass here and it’s sickening. There is no reasoning with these people. These are the same people that believe she’s part of a pedophile ring with kids in kept in pizza store basements.

Staunch Trump supports were never going to vote for Hillary, but I thought I made it pretty obvious that I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about the millions of moderates that actually gave Trump the advantage. The people that will vote either way depending on the candidate. Not everyone in this country is so strictly partisan.

challengerX · October 11, 2018, 12:41:17 PM

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Elai · October 11, 2018, 12:47:35 PM

Quote from: challengerX on October 11, 2018, 12:41:17 PM

Maybe for Bernie, but he was so weak

How exactly was he weak? From what I've seen he ran a really respectable campaign and seemed much "stronger" than Clinton.

Aether · October 11, 2018, 01:17:40 PM

Quote from: challengerX on October 11, 2018, 12:41:17 PM

Quote from: Aether on October 11, 2018, 12:26:39 PM
Quote from: challengerX on October 11, 2018, 12:03:06 PM
Quote from: Aether on October 10, 2018, 10:48:17 PM
Quote from: Eli on October 10, 2018, 10:16:32 PM
People aren't going to consider themselves the exception when you degrade them for very specific actions, like supporting a movement or candidate. One of the main reasons Hillary's basket of deplorables comment was so damaging for her. You insult voters for who they're considering to vote for and it certainly isn't going to bring them over to your side, especially when your opponent is painting you as a condescending elitist. If Trump insulted average citizens then he made a big gamble in doing so and he's lucky it didn't backfire on him badly.

I don't know what candidate this country needs right now. I don't know much about this Avenatti guy besides him being a lawyer who is highly opposed to Trump. I just know that the next democratic candidate needs to appeal to the average citizen the way Trump was able to by embracing issues the average american citizen actually cares about (hopefully genuinely) instead of playing the game of identity politics, and they need to avoid upsetting the millions of voters who are currently torn over supporting a party that is perceived as elitist and uncaring of the working class.
Those people were never gonna vote for her. You’re just constantly talking out of your ass here and it’s sickening. There is no reasoning with these people. These are the same people that believe she’s part of a pedophile ring with kids in kept in pizza store basements.
Staunch Trump supports were never going to vote for Hillary, but I thought I made it pretty obvious that I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about the millions of moderates that actually gave Trump the advantage. The people that will vote either way depending on the candidate. Not everyone in this country is so strictly partisan.
You’re blind if you can’t see just how partisan America has been since Obama was elected. Nobody that voted for trump was ever going to vote for Hillary. Maybe for Bernie, but he was so weak and had such leftist ideals it would have never worked out in a million years.

I never said the country wasn't growing more partisan, but just because society is becoming more polarized doesn't mean there aren't still millions of moderates that will vote either way.

You're dealing in absolutes which is just foolish. Maybe only a small number of people that voted for Trump would have voted for Hillary if she had held a better campaign, but I'm willing to bet that a whole lot more Trump voters would've voted Democrat if they had a better candidate than the two awful ones we ended up with.

I don't know who they need, exactly, but it's gotta be someone that will actually lay out their policy and try to tackle issues Americans actually care about, drop the identity politics nonsense, and won't insult voters.

challengerX · October 11, 2018, 01:32:08 PM

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Verbatim · October 11, 2018, 01:49:19 PM

Quote from: Aether on October 11, 2018, 12:26:39 PM

Staunch Trump supports were never going to vote for Hillary, but I thought I made it pretty obvious that I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about the millions of moderates that actually gave Trump the advantage. The people that will vote either way depending on the candidate. Not everyone in this country is so strictly partisan.

If you're given a choice between Trump and Clinton, and you are genuinely unsure of which one to choose, you're not a moderate.

Being a moderate does not mean you think all candidates are worthy of equal individual consideration—the only people who think this way are children who don't have the right to vote anyway, because they're ignorant. Being a moderate just means you find yourself in the center of the political spectrum. That means, if you're a real moderate, more extreme candidates are going to turn you away.

Pretty much every single person who voted for Trump had an agenda. Virtually none of them were moderates, because a moderate would've considered Trump to be the joke candidate that he was.

Aether · October 11, 2018, 01:53:21 PM

Quote from: challengerX on October 11, 2018, 01:32:08 PM

Saying that absolutely no one who voted for Trump would have voted for Hillary is an absolute.

My point about moderates is based on the fact that swing voters exist, and traditionally always have. Both sides are moving away from each other and the percentage of swing voters is declining, but they still count. Trump was able to sway a lot of them to his side when he embraced a populist campaign.

I'm not trying to say Hillary would've been able to win somehow by swaying swing voters. I think she was an awful candidate with way too much controversial baggage, and she made a huge mistake by insulting voters and playing the game of identity politics. What I'm saying is the left needs a candidate that can actually attract moderates.

Aether · October 11, 2018, 01:59:15 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 01:49:19 PM

Quote from: Aether on October 11, 2018, 12:26:39 PM
Staunch Trump supports were never going to vote for Hillary, but I thought I made it pretty obvious that I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about the millions of moderates that actually gave Trump the advantage. The people that will vote either way depending on the candidate. Not everyone in this country is so strictly partisan.
If you're given a choice between Trump and Clinton, and you are genuinely unsure of which one to choose, you're not a moderate.

Being a moderate does not mean you think all candidates are worthy of equal individual consideration—it just means you find yourself in the center of the political spectrum. That means more extreme candidates are going to turn you away. That means Trump is sure to shut out the true moderates.

Basically you're saying that anyone who would vote for Trump cannot be in the center. I don't see how that's true at all. People are not static. And some are more easily swayed than others. I think a lot of fence sitters were pulled to the right when Trump campaigned on standing up for the working class, and maybe they aren't in the center so much anymore, but I'm willing to bet that those people can very well be pulled back towards the left by the right kind of candidate.

Regardless of how much you hate Trump, how you feel about him and those who voted for him doesn't just negate the fact that there are a lot of people that will vote the other way if what they perceive as a better option is presented to them. That can be provided without having to embrace all the negative aspects of Trump.

challengerX · October 11, 2018, 02:08:52 PM

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Dietrich Six · October 11, 2018, 02:19:24 PM

When Hillary cheated to beat Bernie is when the Democrats lost the election. She had no right to be in the running.

challengerX · October 11, 2018, 02:22:34 PM

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