Quote from: Flee on December 05, 2018, 12:35:55 PM

Quote from: Genghis Khan on December 05, 2018, 12:13:30 PM

Quote from: Flee on December 05, 2018, 09:42:42 AM

Quote from: Fedorekd on December 04, 2018, 05:53:20 PM

UH OOOOOOH

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46446694

Who would've thought. Brexit is such an appalling mistake and it should be ditched asap.

Also, the ECJ Advocate General has let on that the UK can unilaterally stop Brexit by just rescinding their invocation of article 50. Holding the door open in case you guys want to come back.

Shouldn't they honor the first referendum by leaving first?

No.

So what happens now? Ignore the will of the people? This how we preserve faith in our democratic system?

Ideally, we treat the referendum for what it was: purely advisory, non-binding and never intended to shackle the government to what a miniscule majority favored.

The will of the people can also change. People voted on a pipe dream of what Brexit might be and how it would pan out. Those who voted Remain all wanted the exact same and very concrete thing. Those who voted Leave are a basket case of people who all have a different view of what Brexit should be. Some want a complete no deal severance of all ties with Europe. Others want to remain in the Single Market with limitless trading, or to adopt one of the many other types of arrangements (Canada / USA / Norway / Switzerland style...), or only to stop people from freely moving and working in the UK, or a million other things. There's thousands of people who are going "well, I wanted to leave the EU but not like that - that's a terrible idea and not worth it". It's like someone saying they just want to get rid of their special membership card at the local supermarket and then be told afterwards that this also means they'll be banned from the store entirely. Your hardcore Brexiter might say "if we're leaving on those terms and maintain a trade relationship with the EU, then we're just following their rules without having a say in them - that's an even worse situation than what we had before, fuck it", while your mild Leaver might have the opposite opinion and say "woah, I wanted out of the EU bureaucracy but not if it meant we'd have to close our entire border and miss out on billions in trade with the EU, fuck that".

It's not really the will of the people when you force them to deal in absolutes and make a simple yes/no decision on an incredibly complex topic they likely don't even fully understand the consequences of and don't even know what the outcome will look like. It's like being asked to choose between a free holiday abroad (sounds great!) or just staying at home, when choosing the first unexpectedly has you travel 3 days in the back of a garbage truck to get to a grimy motel in the shittiest part of another country. Had you known that the free trip would be like that, you would've never agreed to it. It's hardly the people's will when it relates to a topic they've been fed dozens of lies, empty promises and misleading propaganda about. It's no longer informed, accurate or truthful at that point.

And this is by far the best way to keep faith in our democratic system. There's a reason we more or less ditched direct democracy. Specialization is a cornerstone of societal and economic development and progress. The more complicated stuff gets, the less we can all be experts at everything. It's why instead of every household learning how to make its own crappy shoes, baskets, houses and food, we now have people who specialize and excel at all these things so that we trade our skills for the best results. Same thing applies here. We can't all be experts with years of experience and degrees in trade, diplomacy, law, science, environmental policy, economics, healthcare and so on, which is why we elected people who share our values but do know these things to represent us and make informed, beneficial and smart decisions based on our votes.

Brexit is a horrible mistake and that's becoming more obvious by the day. Asking John Doe who couldn't even tell you what the EU is and who's oblivious to the fact that it subsidizes more than half his agricultural business to make a huge decision after reading bold lies in the Sun about how Europe is going to make Juncker the new King of England is insane, and then following up on it over the tiniest minority is even more so.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/18/brexit-cabinet-meets-to-discuss-ramping-up-plans-for-no-deal

Ah fuck. I fear for the UK now.

I'm not in the know on Brexit, but I thought the entire point of it was to gain independence from EU law. What is the point of "leaving" if the deal you make is just going to keep the country subject to it?

That's one of the many follies of it all. The EU is one of the largest economies in the world. It's rivaled only by the US and China and, depending on the metric you use, beats them in some aspects. This allows it to make high demands with trading partners wanting to enter the "European single market". It all depends on the sector and the country involved, but the EU seeks to maintain a high standard of adequacy for the quality of foreign products and services.

You want to sell your (foodstuff) to the EU? Sure, but you have to make sure you follow every single one of its rules regarding health, safety, hormones, pesticides, labeling, packaging, origin and so forth before you're allowed to do so. Oh, you want to offer a digital service to people in the EU? Perfect, but keep in mind that the GDPR applies to businesses located outside of Europe too so you have to show you're in compliance with all laws on data processing. You want to introduce a new cellphone plan to Europe? No problem, but you'll have to follow all the standards for non-sim locked cards, the abolition of roaming fees, the guarantee that people can easily transfer to other providers... You get the point. You want to trade with the EU? Be prepared to follow all of its rules, standards, human rights clauses and so on. The EU can do without the UK just fine, but the opposite? Not so much. The UK simply needs the European market to export its goods and services to. So even after Brexit, the UK will still have to effectively abide by most of the European legislation and convert it into its national laws and courts as well.The main difference is that the country will then have given up its very influential position in the EU and will have no say in any of its policies.

Quote from: Mr. Psychologist on February 01, 2019, 07:54:24 PM

why are you like this

Holy hell you're alive?

yes lol

Can't say I come here too often these days but I'm still about