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Messages - More Than Mortal

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8551
Serious / Re: When it comes to freedom, which is more important?
« on: January 15, 2015, 02:20:24 PM »
By my understanding of the terms, liberty begets self-reliance.
True, but for the sake of consideration try to split the difference. Liberty may result in self-reliance, but is that just an ancillary benefit in the face of the moral importance of being free from coercion? Or is freedom from coercion important because it results in self-reliance.

This is why I tried to contain the separate concepts of liberty and self-reliance in a broad-church idea of 'freedom'.

8552
Serious / Re: When it comes to freedom, which is more important?
« on: January 15, 2015, 02:12:46 PM »
Define the terms, please.
Well, liberty would be about being free from interference.

Self-reliance is about have a society of individuals who are responsible for themselves.


8553
Serious / Re: What is your most ideal society you can imagine?
« on: January 15, 2015, 02:11:24 PM »
A minimalist, non-democratic government with an authoritarian ethos which allows culture to develop and rejects egalitarianism.

8554
Serious / When it comes to freedom, which is more important?
« on: January 15, 2015, 02:05:26 PM »
Liberty, or self-reliance? Which 'facet' of freedom do you find more valuable?

I think, for me, it has to be self-reliance.

8555
Serious / Re: Somewhere along the line we fucked up.
« on: January 15, 2015, 01:52:57 PM »
Physics-wise, it does. The physical purpose of evolution is to convert higher forms of energy into heat. This contributes to the ultimate goal of fulfilling the second law of thermodynamics.
. . .

Still no agency. Still no goal. That's just a happenstance process. I really needn't bring up Dawkins' book: The Blind Watchmaker.

8556
Serious / Re: Somewhere along the line we fucked up.
« on: January 15, 2015, 01:41:11 PM »
We don't have free will, we are controlled.
What the fuck are you even going on about? Evolution/nature has no agency. It has no goal.

8557
Serious / Re: The big bang and the origins of the universe
« on: January 15, 2015, 01:37:19 PM »
Time and space were created out of the Big Bang, likely in proportion to matter and energy. According to the majority of physicists today, there's really no asking about before the Big Bang, because time did not exist.
That's literally my point.

8558
Serious / Re: Somewhere along the line we fucked up.
« on: January 15, 2015, 01:36:35 PM »
It's objective and inescapable, even if you insist humans have.
That naturalistic fallacy, though.

8559
Serious / Men who treat women equally are overwhelmingly seen as sexist
« on: January 15, 2015, 01:35:39 PM »
This is a Master's thesis for the University of Waterloo.

I'll grab the conclusion:
Quote
Since women have traditionally been valued as moral exemplars and innocent creatures that should be protected by men, disagreement with this notion could be interpreted differently depending on the target’s gender. For example, if a woman disagrees with benevolent sexist ideas, then people may think that she views women and men on equal terms, as they may think it unlikely that she has negative feelings about her own gender. However, if a man disagrees with benevolent sexist ideas, then people may misattribute his beliefs to misogyny, since he is not valuing women in the traditional manner that people have been taught to. Based on this line of reasoning, I predicted that both male and female perceivers will assume that men, but not women, have univalent attitudes toward women. If people do assume univalent attitudes in men, then the male target’s level of BS will influence his perceived level of HS, such that low (high) BS men will be rated as more (less) hostile towards women. A female target’s level of BS, however, will have less impact on perceptions of her levels of hostility toward women.

This thesis reports two studies that examine lay people’s perception of the relationship between men’s HS and BS. Similar to previous work (Bohner et al., 2010; Kilianski & Rudman, 1998), participants were presented with target profiles and completed dependent measures about the target. In Study 1, I tested if laypeople misperceive the relationship between men’s HS and BS attitudes by manipulating target information on one component of sexism and directly measuring the target’s predicted score on the other component of sexism. In Study 2, I tested the role of attributional ambiguity in laypeople’s misconceptions of BS in men by manipulating the attribution for the target’s rejection of BS and directly measuring the target’s predicted level of HS.

In both studies, I also measured participants’ inferences about the target’s attitudes and behaviours (e.g., support for female professionals, quality as a spouse and parent, and propensity for abusiveness). If people indeed have misconceptions about the relationship between men’s HS and BS, then they would make more negative inferences about the low BS male target than the high BS male target. Thus, in Study 1, I expected that the low BS male target would be rated as more hostile towards women than the low BS female target and the high BS male target, but level of BS would have less impact on evaluations of the female target. In Study 2, I expected that the low BS male target who endorses egalitarian beliefs would be rated as less hostile toward women than the low BS male target who did not explicitly endorse egalitarian beliefs, but ratings of the low BS female target would be less affected by endorsement of egalitarianism.

8560
Serious / Re: Somewhere along the line we fucked up.
« on: January 15, 2015, 01:22:37 PM »
Evolution isn't about happiness, it's about dominance.
Why are you placing value on the processes of evolution?

8561
Serious / Re: You may now step into the teleporter
« on: January 15, 2015, 01:11:51 PM »
Would your consciousness still exist though? Do you think you could still experience things?
I, as in my immediate and proximate identity, wouldn't.

I'm just stuck on whether or not a separate continuation of my perception, via teleportation, would constitute a proper continuation of my identity.

8562
Serious / Re: You may now step into the teleporter
« on: January 15, 2015, 01:05:13 PM »
it's the ship of theseus. i think it's somewhat platonic, as well- there is "meta cognition," the person, and there is the idea of "meta cognition", or "meta cognition-ness." your form merely reflects this fundamental idea of "meta cognition," so a reconstructed body (as long as you retain your knowledge and memories) is nothing more than another reflection of what it is to be "meta cognition"
The problem with Platonism, Aristotelianism, Cartesian Dualism and all of the monotheisms is that this idea of the 'ego' which they posit--explained by you--is necessarily a sort of non-empirical stratum, from which properties arise. It doesn't make sense. The thing-in-itself isn't distinct from its properties.

I'm much more of a Humean in that properties cause substance. Not the other way around. I agree that memories and continued perception would contribute to this idea of my 'ego' continuing, but I'm not sure how much physical continuity--especially at the atomic level--counts.

8563
Serious / Re: You may now step into the teleporter
« on: January 15, 2015, 12:59:41 PM »
Yes.

Although, I really can't answer whether or not this reconstruction would still be 'me'.

8564
Serious / Re: Somewhere along the line we fucked up.
« on: January 15, 2015, 12:57:33 PM »
There's nothing inherently virtuous about being a human, and thus nothing to be lost by acting in the way that you so describe. This actually ties in quite nicely with the determinism discussion we were having a few threads over; it actually helps me understand and cope with the things you list.

We're apes. Hairless, violent apes--with nukes, no less. But, in saying that, we're still intelligent. It's not at all surprising that some people have really fucked value-systems, I mean, we're only just stumbling out of the dark ages. I don't feel animosity towards people for being stupid--not in the long-term anyway--because we are a stupid species. All species are.
Heh. You just called us intelligent and stupid in the same paragraph.

I'd opt for the word "sapient". It's in our binomial nomenclature.
I just enjoy the necessary dichotomy involved in sapience between stupidity and intelligence. You need to be stupid in order to be intelligent--that's just the way of it.

8565
Serious / Re: Somewhere along the line we fucked up.
« on: January 15, 2015, 12:46:41 PM »
There's nothing inherently virtuous about being a human, and thus nothing to be lost by acting in the way that you so describe. This actually ties in quite nicely with the determinism discussion we were having a few threads over; it actually helps me understand and cope with the things you list.

We're apes. Hairless, violent apes--with nukes, no less. But, in saying that, we're still intelligent. It's not at all surprising that some people have really fucked value-systems, I mean, we're only just stumbling out of the dark ages. I don't feel animosity towards people for being stupid--not in the long-term anyway--because we are a stupid species. All species are.

8566
Serious / Re: Scientist and engineer mentalities
« on: January 15, 2015, 12:36:15 PM »
I get that you usually need intelligence to then create well being, but creating well being is still your ultimate goal, is it not?
Obviously.
Yeah I didn't realize it was an irrelevant point to make until a little later.
Hell, even if you're utterly, utterly psychopathic and you don't have that motivation, surely more information is always beneficial for the sake of offering clarity?

8567
Serious / Re: Does moral responsibility require free will?
« on: January 15, 2015, 12:33:57 PM »
Humans aren't the only species that can suffer. I mean, any animal that lives in a group essentially lives by rules to benefit the group a a whole.
Which is why a proper moral system is concerned with the well-being of conscious creates, proportionally. We're obviously more important than pigs, as pigs are more important than ants and ants are more important than rocks.

Quote
Cultural meaning passed down information, not cultural as in Chinese festivals and Italian pizza.
I don't see how that's supposed to support your argument, though.

8568
Serious / Re: Scientist and engineer mentalities
« on: January 15, 2015, 12:32:05 PM »
I get that you usually need intelligence to then create well being, but creating well being is still your ultimate goal, is it not?
Obviously.

8569
Serious / Re: Does moral responsibility require free will?
« on: January 15, 2015, 12:30:02 PM »
If moral responsibility required free will, you wouldn't see so many morally responsible determinists.
That's kind of my refutation of the whole idea.

I don't really believe that moral responsibility exists--in that I don't think a bear can be more 'immoral' than a murderous psychopath, or more 'moral' than a paediatric surgeon--but if you agree in some sort of objective moral standard, as I think anybody rational must, then it's clear that there are right and wrong ways to navigate such a space. This navigation necessarily creates some sort of practical moral responsibility, in that people ought to feel certain consequences for their actions for the sake of encouragement of dissuasion, even if we're all acting as part of this determined stream.

It's a matter, in essence, of acting morally within the determined stream.

8570
Serious / Re: Does moral responsibility require free will?
« on: January 15, 2015, 12:26:50 PM »
I'm under the impression that objective morality exists, but I don't believe morality is a product of human intelligence
It's a product of human complexity, and our ability to suffer--which is correlated with intelligence, I would think.

Quote
I think it's a matter of (cultural) evolution.
Then it's not objective. It can't be objective if it's cultural.

Quote
And if morality is based on evolution
It isn't.


8571
Serious / Re: Scientist and engineer mentalities
« on: January 15, 2015, 12:14:21 PM »
What exactly is so intrinsically valuable about intelligence? If you're not gathering intelligence for hedonistic purposes, why else would you bother with it?
Nothing is intrinsically valuable. I could conceive of several pieces of information which ought to be kept from the people at large.

The point is that all sorts of advancement--moral, medicinal, neurological, societal, political, economical--rely on solid foundation of information, and in pursuing objectively correct information then we are, by definition, on the way to better understanding how such things function and then supplying a greater level of well-being for conscious creatures.


8572
Serious / Re: Does moral responsibility require free will?
« on: January 15, 2015, 12:10:39 PM »
Would you not lock up natural disasters if you could, or am I missing your point there?
No, I'm saying the fact that we lack a "true" moral responsibility doesn't lead to a lack of morality. We would lock up hurricanes, earthquakes, dangerous bears (and so on) if we could purely as a matter of public safety. And we should continue doing so in the case of murderous psychopaths. We can quite forcefully and correctly say what we ought to do, even if people are at a disadvantage (or even completely incapable) of doing such things.

8573
Serious / Re: Scientist and engineer mentalities
« on: January 15, 2015, 12:07:53 PM »
Knowledge comes above all else, and I have no respect for fideism or hedonism.
Why exactly is that?
Why the fuck should I?

A virtuous or otherwise decent life isn't properly obtained by subjecting yourself to a sort-of informational starvation or negligence.

8574
Serious / Re: Does moral responsibility require free will?
« on: January 15, 2015, 12:04:53 PM »
. . .
I don't disagree. I don't think a negation of moral responsibility necessarily entails some kind of moral nihilism.

I mean, we'd lock up hurricanes and earthquakes if we could.

8575
Serious / Re: Scientist and engineer mentalities
« on: January 15, 2015, 11:40:03 AM »
It is better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied.

Knowledge comes above all else, and I have no respect for fideism or hedonism.

8576
Serious / Does moral responsibility require free will?
« on: January 15, 2015, 11:37:55 AM »
As most of you will probably know, I'm both a hard determinist and an ethical naturalist. Or, put simply, I don't believe in free will and, at the same time, I believe in objective moral standards. Now, of course, speaking of a person as he ought to be seems somewhat redundant if you consider people to be fundamentally determined.

It seems that determinism destroys any idea of moral responsibility, as even subtle changes in neurology can result in whether or not somebody is more likely to commit a violent crime. I'm having a bit of trouble formulating my response to this linguistically, but I'm fairly certain that you don't need an ontological or metaphysical conception of moral responsibility in order to have a practical one--insofar as one is necessary.

8577
Its like you liberals like to say. "You can have freedom of speech, but that doesn't protect your from its consequences".
While I'm no liberal, I'm fairly certain that's more to do with criticism than being fucking murdered or otherwise coerced--especially for satire. People can criticise you however much they like when you use your freedom of expression, but within the confines of the law.

8578
The Flood / Re: People that buy pure breed dogs
« on: January 15, 2015, 10:41:10 AM »
I've been questioning the ethics of owning pets at all lately.
Really? Why?
Because I certainly wouldn't want to be "owned" by anyone for their entertainment.

Thing is, most pets seem to be okay with it... but does that necessarily make it okay?...
Pets simply aren't property in a way that a table is. Moral responsibilities relate to the well-being of conscious creatures--dogs and cats included.

8579
The Flood / Re: People that buy pure breed dogs
« on: January 15, 2015, 10:25:32 AM »
I don't know about anybody else,  but my cocker spaniel has had a nice life.

8580
Serious / Re: How would you vote in Germany and France?
« on: January 15, 2015, 09:56:20 AM »
I can't decide who I'll vote for here in the UK, let alone another country.
UKIP seems like an awesome choice.
If I vote UKIP it'll only be because I love in a Tory stronghold.

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