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Messages - More Than Mortal

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691
Serious / Re: AMA about British politics
« on: October 28, 2016, 02:36:00 PM »
Which has been the historically best party throughout the years?
Define "best".

692
Serious / AMA about British politics
« on: October 28, 2016, 02:26:35 PM »
So I'm sat here with a number of textbooks and articles about pretty much anything you can imagine to do with British politics.

So if anybody has a question, ask away and I'll trawl through them to find an answer.

693
Serious / Re: TIL something about the European Commission
« on: October 26, 2016, 08:57:11 AM »
I mean, surely you have read these before.
Yes, and I have nothing but contempt for Boris Johnson.

694
Serious / Re: TIL something about the European Commission
« on: October 26, 2016, 07:26:13 AM »
After a brief look through it doesn't seem to say anything about immigration or sovereignty (besides passing reference to tax harmonisation) and entries like this one enjoy the status of being technically correct but missing a wider point. This page really doesn't offer anything interesting with regards to the motivations for Brexit.

As much you might want to believe it to be the case, most people did not vote Leave because they think the EU regulates the curvature of cucumbers too much. Trying to pin the vote down to specific policy considerations, as opposed to wider value/cultural considerations, will miss the forest for the trees.


695
The Flood / Re: Hey late night friends
« on: October 24, 2016, 11:45:57 AM »
This is a fucked up thread.

696
Serious / Re: A rebuttal of a defense of Clinton's email scandal
« on: October 24, 2016, 11:43:57 AM »
Anyone have an opinion in my stance on Clinton's warmongering? Especially with Russia?

Finally. Something that matters.
TIL how SoSs handle classified information doesn't matter.

697
Serious / Re: Alright, lets have one of these threads again...
« on: October 22, 2016, 06:34:59 PM »
I am a complete centrist when it comes to the economy.
Welcome to the club.

698
Serious / Re: The EU is a threat to democracy
« on: October 22, 2016, 04:31:27 PM »
Why do you like his accent so much btw?
Queen's English, mate.

699
Serious / The EU is a threat to democracy
« on: October 22, 2016, 10:47:11 AM »
YouTube


Full debate is here, but I always enjoyed Jacob Rees-Mogg as a speaker. Even if only for his gorgeous accent.

700
Serious / Re: Why working-class people vote conservative
« on: October 22, 2016, 10:44:45 AM »
False--liberals tend to reject the last two--authority and sanctity. The first four are well-regarded on both sides of the political spectrum
The point is not that liberals don't value loyalty, it's that they don't value loyalty as defined by MFT. Contextually, loyalty means how much you value being a team player over individuality, how likely you are to support your government if they do something wrong etc. 

Liberals, on the whole, are more likely to value freedom of thought over loyalty to a given group goal, less likely to be patriotic etc. You can view the data on the MFT website, and take the surveys, to see for yourself precisely how the moral foundations are being defined.

Quote
Also, the whole there-is-no-god thing kind of nullifies "sanctity" as a moral foundation. In other words, it's not one.
I would point out that it's possible to have some respect for sanctity in non-religious ways. I, for instance, would say you yourself have a rather high appreciation of sanctity in the very specific realm of sobriety. It seems, at least to me, that sanctity for you is the equivalent of not brutalising your perceptions.

Nevertheless, this is exactly what I mean when I said you can convincingly argue some of the moral foundations are bad foundations to have. Haidt's work is descriptive; the fact that he determines people have these foundations isn't any judgement on the quality of them.

Quote
If you're talking about patriotism in the traditional flag-waving jingoistic sense, I consider that pretty narrow and ill-thought-out.
I am, and I know you do.

Regardless, take a survey of conservatives and liberals. I guarantee the conservatives will reliably refer to themselves as more patriotic on average than liberals do.

Quote
I'm referring specifically to this essay. Does he not, in this essay, directly imply some kind of moral superiority over liberals just for clinging to these redundant, arbitrary, and bogus moral foundations?
No. He doesn't even indirectly imply it. All he's saying is that conservative parties enjoy (somewhat surprising) electoral success because they appeal to a wider degree of moral concerns irrespective of whether these moral concerns are good concerns to have.

All you really seem to dislike is that it's not phrased in a way as to be unabashedly liberal. You could equally say that conservatives tend to be on average more nationalistic, subservient to authority and superstitious and conservative parties do well because they appeal to this.


701
Serious / Re: What trickle-down economics is, and what it is not
« on: October 22, 2016, 09:10:58 AM »
>Alan Greenspan fanboy
Only pre-2001.


702
Serious / Re: "Politifact is reliable and unbiased"
« on: October 21, 2016, 10:30:25 PM »
Reality clearly has a liberal bias
SUUUUURE
Yeah, we're gonna read 34 pages of that shit.
If you can't read a 34 page article you don't deserve to claim reality has a bias in your favour.

703
Serious / Re: "Politifact is reliable and unbiased"
« on: October 21, 2016, 09:59:21 PM »

704
Serious / Re: "Politifact is reliable and unbiased"
« on: October 21, 2016, 09:56:22 PM »
I don't think it's unreasonable to think Politifact has a centre-left bias.

705
Gaming / Re: Civilization 6 thread
« on: October 21, 2016, 06:18:47 PM »
I fell for the meme. Don't recommend anyone buys this until there's a pricr drop.
Why?

706
Serious / Re: Why working-class people vote conservative
« on: October 21, 2016, 03:44:50 PM »
Quote from: Verbatim link=topic=66854.msg1339930#msg1
How do do you figure? If you have a wider degree of moral concerns, how is that not better by default? I just don't think that stands to reason.
The different moral foundations are specifically defined. They are, if I remember them correctly: Care, Fairness, Liberty,  Loyalty, Authority and Sanctity.

Liberals tend to care about the first three, while conservatives tend to care about all six equally. This shouldn't be surprising; conservatives are more likely to be patriotic, supportive of authority,  religous and geneally less open to experience. Haidt acknowledges the outliers, like the current green movement displaying a consideration for a form of sanctity, but that doesn't change the aggregates.

Quote
Even if you're right, is that not what Haidt is implying?
I'm pretty sure in his book the Righteous Mind he openly talks about how consideration for certain foundations can be bad and have been bad at certain points in history.

But honestly it feels like you're reading that into his argument because you disagree with it. All he's saying is that conservative parties are successful because they appeal to a wider space of moral concern; if anything, he's suggesting liberal parties do the same to capture more of the vote. There's no real reason why liberal parties wouldn't be able to do this, to snag more conservatively minded independents, and maybe even conservative voters themselves.

Quote
It's hard to argue that conservatives have a broader moral scope when they're slaves to self-interest. They don't act based on what they believe is right--they act based on what'll wank their dicks harder, whether they'd like to admit it or not.
This is such a caricature of conservatives. . . Is that what you honestly think of the way Turkey or I think, or the myriad working-class conservative voters?

I mean, come on man. How can you expect serious and productive discussion if you assume your opponents are behaving like that?

707
Serious / What trickle-down economics is, and what it is not
« on: October 21, 2016, 12:51:03 PM »
Trickle-down economics is the very specific political idea that cutting taxes on the wealthy would increase the compensation of workers as the money trickled down. Or, more commonly, it's simply used as a pejorative by opponents who see something even vaguely free-market.

Trickle-down economics is not an economic theory, does not mean any kind of tax cut, such as capital gains tax cuts and it is not at all use as a justification for such tax cuts by academics.

Stop using this term; it's a political sp00k.

708
Serious / Re: Trans Air Force personnel exempt from fitness tests
« on: October 21, 2016, 12:41:05 PM »
Your subject is misleading. It's only during the transition that they're exempt. Once that's finished they are held to the same standard as the sex they transition to.

Yes, that's the first sentence of the article.

But your subject is misleading.

It's a paraphrase of the article's title. I don't interject my thoughts when I'm quoting another author.
Mate, you don't get it. Your subject title is a reasonable summary of the article, but is ambiguous enough to be read in a misleading way. It doesn't matter that this can be cleared up by reading the first sentence of the article; this doesn't satisfy my laziness, or stop me from trying to score tribal political points by appearing to side with an oppressed minority . . .

So I'm going to waste my time complaining about it, okay? Fascist pig.

709
Serious / Re: Why working-class people vote conservative
« on: October 21, 2016, 12:17:56 PM »
If there's a better article explaining this theory, I'd be interested to read it. Your earlier link didn't work.
Here is the same paper.

710
Serious / Re: Why working-class people vote conservative
« on: October 21, 2016, 12:16:26 PM »
This is not to say that are no legitimate criticisms of MFT. See here, especially Sam Harris's section.

Here is a response by Haidt to Harris. And here is a podcast with the two of them.

711
Serious / Re: Why working-class people vote conservative
« on: October 21, 2016, 12:09:38 PM »
No, not just differing moral concerns--his claim is that conservatives tend to have broader moral concerns (which is a weasel word for "better"). That was the point of his dopey analogy. Because apparently, leftists are only concerned about "sweet," which he analogizes as the poor and the infirm.
Don't just take a Guardian aimed at briefly explaining a theory in social psychology to the masses as having sufficient depth to explain the theory.

If you think it's poorly written, or is verbose, that's one thing. But trying to pull down the whole of moral foundations theory--which to my understanding is fairly well supported empirically--on the basis of an analogy to taste is kind of silly.

He doesn't say either conservative or liberal moral concerns are superior. Haidt himself used to be a partisan liberal, and his own moral foundations are more liberal than conservative iirc. The point is that conservatives tend to have a wider degree of moral concerns than liberals; this doesn't mean better.

You could, after all, convincingly argue that the moral foundations conservatives care about are bad things to care about.

Quote
he's not making a very robust argument, is he?
Neither are you. You should know that outliers, such as you might be, are not especially important in a statistical sense. The fact that you specifically exist and disagree with the way Haidt is making his argument means very little.

You should also know that a Guardian article is a jumping off point for further discussion and investigation; not rigorous canon of social psychology. Tearing down the article doesn't equal tearing down the theory.

712
Serious / Re: Why working-class people vote conservative
« on: October 21, 2016, 10:36:03 AM »
Quote
One reason the left has such difficulty forging a lasting connection with voters is that the right has a built-in advantage – conservatives have a broader moral palate than the liberals (as we call leftists in the US). Think about it this way: our tongues have taste buds that are responsive to five classes of chemicals, which we perceive as sweet, sour, salty, bitter, and savoury. Sweetness is generally the most appealing of the five tastes, but when it comes to a serious meal, most people want more than that.
When you substantiate your shitty argument with debunked scientific myths that have been proven false for years and years, it can be hard to take the rest of what you say seriously.
What a stupid reason to disagree with the thrust of the article. He's using an incredibly common concept to explain the idea of differing moral concerns.

If you don't want it to be worded for the hoi polloi, then read this.

EDIT: He doesn't even say anything about the tongue having mapped areas; he just says they respond to different classes of taste. . . which is true.

713
Serious / Why working-class people vote conservative
« on: October 21, 2016, 09:28:54 AM »
2012 Guardian article by Jon Haidt

Quote
Why on Earth would a working-class person ever vote for a conservative candidate? This question has obsessed the American left since Ronald Reagan first captured the votes of so many union members, farmers, urban Catholics and other relatively powerless people – the so-called "Reagan Democrats". Isn't the Republican party the party of big business? Don't the Democrats stand up for the little guy, and try to redistribute the wealth downwards?

Many commentators on the left have embraced some version of the duping hypothesis: the Republican party dupes people into voting against their economic interests by triggering outrage on cultural issues. "Vote for us and we'll protect the American flag!" say the Republicans. "We'll make English the official language of the United States! And most importantly, we'll prevent gay people from threatening your marriage when they … marry! Along the way we'll cut taxes on the rich, cut benefits for the poor, and allow industries to dump their waste into your drinking water, but never mind that. Only we can protect you from gay, Spanish-speaking flag-burners!"

One of the most robust findings in social psychology is that people find ways to believe whatever they want to believe. And the left really want to believe the duping hypothesis. It absolves them from blame and protects them from the need to look in the mirror or figure out what they stand for in the 21st century.

Here's a more painful but ultimately constructive diagnosis, from the point of view of moral psychology: politics at the national level is more like religion than it is like shopping. It's more about a moral vision that unifies a nation and calls it to greatness than it is about self-interest or specific policies. In most countries, the right tends to see that more clearly than the left. In America the Republicans did the hard work of drafting their moral vision in the 1970s, and Ronald Reagan was their eloquent spokesman. Patriotism, social order, strong families, personal responsibility (not government safety nets) and free enterprise. Those are values, not government programmes.

The Democrats, in contrast, have tried to win voters' hearts by promising to protect or expand programmes for elderly people, young people, students, poor people and the middle class. Vote for us and we'll use government to take care of everyone! But most Americans don't want to live in a nation based primarily on caring. That's what families are for.

One reason the left has such difficulty forging a lasting connection with voters is that the right has a built-in advantage – conservatives have a broader moral palate than the liberals (as we call leftists in the US). Think about it this way: our tongues have taste buds that are responsive to five classes of chemicals, which we perceive as sweet, sour, salty, bitter, and savoury. Sweetness is generally the most appealing of the five tastes, but when it comes to a serious meal, most people want more than that.

In the same way, you can think of the moral mind as being like a tongue that is sensitive to a variety of moral flavours. In my research with colleagues at YourMorals.org, we have identified six moral concerns as the best candidates for being the innate "taste buds" of the moral sense: care/harm, fairness/cheating, liberty/oppression, loyalty/betrayal, authority/subversion, and sanctity/degradation. Across many kinds of surveys, in the UK as well as in the USA, we find that people who self-identify as being on the left score higher on questions about care/harm. For example, how much would someone have to pay you to kick a dog in the head? Nobody wants to do this, but liberals say they would require more money than conservatives to cause harm to an innocent creature.

But on matters relating to group loyalty, respect for authority and sanctity (treating things as sacred and untouchable, not only in the context of religion), it sometimes seems that liberals lack the moral taste buds, or at least, their moral "cuisine" makes less use of them. For example, according to our data, if you want to hire someone to criticise your nation on a radio show in another nation (loyalty), give the finger to his boss (authority), or sign a piece of paper stating one's willingness to sell his soul (sanctity), you can save a lot of money by posting a sign: "Conservatives need not apply."

In America, it is these three moral foundations that underlie most of the "cultural" issues that, according to duping theorists, are used to distract voters from their self-interest. But are voters really voting against their self-interest when they vote for candidates who share their values? Loyalty, respect for authority and some degree of sanctification create a more binding social order that places some limits on individualism and egoism. As marriage rates plummet, and globalisation and rising diversity erodes the sense of common heritage within each nation, a lot of voters in many western nations find themselves hungering for conservative moral cuisine.

Despite being in the wake of a financial crisis that – if the duping theorists were correct – should have buried the cultural issues and pulled most voters to the left, we are finding in America and many European nations a stronger shift to the right. When people fear the collapse of their society, they want order and national greatness, not a more nurturing government.

Even on the two moral taste buds that both sides claim – fairness and liberty – the right can often outcook the left. The left typically thinks of equality as being central to fairness, and leftists are extremely sensitive about gross inequalities of outcome – particularly when they correspond along racial or ethnic lines. But the broader meaning of fairness is really proportionality – are people getting rewarded in proportion to the work they put into a common project? Equality of outcomes is only seen as fair by most people in the special case in which everyone has made equal contributions. The conservative media (such as the Daily Mail, or Fox News in the US) is much more sensitive to the presence of slackers and benefit cheats. They are very effective at stirring up outrage at the government for condoning cheating.

Similarly for liberty. Americans and Britons all love liberty, yet when liberty and care conflict, the left is more likely to choose care. This is the crux of the US's monumental battle over Obama's healthcare plan. Can the federal government compel some people to buy a product (health insurance) in order to make a plan work that extends care to 30 million other people? The derogatory term "nanny state" is rarely used against the right (pastygate being perhaps an exception). Conservatives are more cautious about infringing on individual liberties (eg of gun owners in the US and small businessmen) in order to protect vulnerable populations (such as children, animals and immigrants).

In sum, the left has a tendency to place caring for the weak, sick and vulnerable above all other moral concerns. It is admirable and necessary that some political party stands up for victims of injustice, racism or bad luck. But in focusing so much on the needy, the left often fails to address – and sometimes violates – other moral needs, hopes and concerns. When working-class people vote conservative, as most do in the US, they are not voting against their self-interest; they are voting for their moral interest. They are voting for the party that serves to them a more satisfying moral cuisine. The left in the UK and USA should think hard about their recipe for success in the 21st century.

714
The Flood / are you a pluviophile
« on: October 20, 2016, 05:56:23 PM »
i most definitely am

715
Serious / Re: Tonight - The Final Debate
« on: October 20, 2016, 05:52:23 PM »

716
The Flood / nicotine withdrawal
« on: October 20, 2016, 01:34:02 AM »
fucking kill me lads

end it

end it now

717
Serious / Re: Tonight - The Final Debate
« on: October 20, 2016, 12:02:52 AM »
One of the things I really don't get is how Hillary supporters smear Trump for blatantly lying/ignoring facts. Hillary's exactly the same; Trump is just more obvious about it.

Not that I'm saying they're qualitatively equal as candidates, but the section on national debt boiled down to the moderator noting "your plan will increase debt-to-GDP to 86pc" and Hillary replying "No it won't".

The only difference between this and Trump saying "wrong" all the time is that Clinton is willing to couch it in rhetoric.

718
Serious / Re: Tonight - The Final Debate
« on: October 19, 2016, 11:52:29 PM »
I just watched the debate, it's nearing the end right now, but even with Hillary winning the presidency she lost this debate hard. She got BTFO several times and completely changed subjects at several points. If Trump was like this in all three debates the polls would be a little different.
The only two people who have worse political opinions than you on this board are PSU and Alpha.
man's lengin some REGULATIONS

719
Serious / Re: Tonight - The Final Debate
« on: October 19, 2016, 09:39:17 PM »
http://www.npr.org/2016/10/19/498293478/fact-check-trump-and-clinton-s-final-presidential-debate

Here is a transcript of the debate with 'fact-checking' annotations.

720
Serious / Re: Tonight - The Final Debate
« on: October 19, 2016, 09:35:29 PM »
I thought she was going to say "great again", then.

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