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Topics - More Than Mortal

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841
The Spectator
Quote
There have been many economic theories over the centuries, accompanied by controversies among different schools of economists. But one of the most politically prominent economic theories today is one that has never existed among economists – the ‘trickle down’ theory. Yet this non-existent theory has been attacked from the New York Times to a writer in India. Franklin D. Roosevelt’s speechwriter Samuel Rosenman referred to:-

‘the philosophy that had prevailed in Washington since 1921, that the object of government was to provide prosperity for those who lived and worked at the top of the economic pyramid, in the belief that prosperity would trickle down to the bottom of the heap and benefit all.’

The same theme was repeated in the election campaign of 2008, when candidate Barack Obama attacked what he called ‘the economic philosophy’ which

‘says we should give more and more to those with the most and hope that prosperity tickles down to everyone else.’

Whether in the United States or in India, and whether in the past or in the present, ‘trickle down’ has been a characterisation and rejection of what somebody else supposedly believed. Moreover, it has been considered unnecessary to cite any given person who had actually advocated any such thing.

The phrase ‘trickle down’ often comes up in discussions of tax policies.Tax revenues have in a number of instances gone up when tax rates have been reduced. But any proposal by economists or others to cut tax rates, including reducing the tax rates on higher incomes or on capital gains, can lead to accusations that those making such proposals must believe that benefits should be given to the wealthy in general or to business in particular, in order that these benefits will eventually ‘trickle down’ to the masses of ordinary people.

But no recognised economist of any school of thought has ever had any such theory or made any such proposal. It is a straw man. It cannot be found in even the most voluminous and learned histories of economic theories.

What is sought by those who advocate lower rates of taxation or other reductions of government’s role in the economy is not the transfer of existing wealth to higher income earners or businesses but the creation of additional wealth when businesses are less hampered by government controls or by increasing government appropriation of that additional wealth under steeply progressive taxation laws. Whatever the merits or demerits of this view, this is the argument that is made – and which is not confronted, but evaded, by talk of a non-existent ‘trickle down’ theory.

More fundamentally, economic processes work in the directly opposite way from that depicted by those who imagine that profits first benefit business owners and that benefits only belatedly trickle down to workers.

When an investment is made, whether to build a railroad or to open a new restaurant, the first money is spent hiring people to do the work. Without that, nothing happens. Even when one person decides to operate a store or hamburger stand without employees, that person must first pay somebody to deliver the goods that are being sold. Money goes out first to pay expenses and then comes back as profits later – it at all. The high rate of failure of new businesses makes painfully clear that there is nothing inevitable about the money coming back.

Even with successful and well-established businesses, years may elapse between the initial investment and the return of earnings. From the time when an oil company begins spending money to explore for petroleum to the time when the first gasoline resulting from that exploration comes out of a pump at a filling station, a decade may have passed. In the meantime, all sorts of employees have been paid – geologists, engineers, refinery workers, and truck drivers, for example. It is only afterwards that profits begin coming in. Only then are there any capital gains to tax. The real effect of a reduction in the capital gains tax is that it opens the prospect of greater future net profits and thereby provides incentives to make current investments that create current employment.

Nor is the oil industry unique. No one who begins publishing a newspaper expects to make a profit – or even break even – during the first year or two. [note: Sowell was writing at a time when newspapers were profitable] But reporters and other members of the newspaper staff expect to be paid every payday, even while the paper only shows red ink on the bottom line. Similarly, Amazon.com began operating in 1995 but its first profits did not appear until the last quarter of 2001, after the company had lost a total of $2.8 billion over the years. Even a phenomenally successful enterprise like the McDonald’s restaurant chain ran up millions of dollars in debts for years before it saw the first dollar of profit. Indeed, it teetered on the brink of bankruptcy more than once in its early years. But the people behind the counter selling hamburgers were paid regularly all that time.

In short, the sequence of payments is directly the opposite of what is assumed by those who talk about a ‘trickle down’ theory. The workers must be paid first and then the profits flow upward later – if at all.

842
Serious / Economics survey (ten questions)
« on: April 29, 2015, 03:56:56 PM »
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/M5TMKGJ

You can post your answers in here, if you like. Get some discussion going. Nonetheless, this is purely for my own interest.

For the record, my own answers:

How would you rate your understanding of economics?
- Knowledgeable (somewhat, I obviously don't even approach professional economists)

Broadly, how do you think people behave?
- A mixture of both neoclassical rationality (in the long-run) and behavioural irrationality (in the short-run)

On the whole, workers are fairly compensated by broadly free markets for their labour.
- Agree

Are tariffs necessary for the well-being of a domestic economy?
- No, they hurt the consumer by inflating prices

Should we have a minimum wage?
- No, provided there is some kind of social safety net for the worst-off

What determines the value of a good or service?
- The subjective value the consumer assigns to it, translated by the cost they are willing to bear for it

Should the government use fiscal stimulus to counteract recessions?
- No, fiscal policy is unwieldy and we have better alternatives

Should the government use monetary stimulus to counteract recessions?
- Yes, using a mixture of both (money supply and interest rates)

What is the most important driver of economic growth?
- Savings and investment

What, primarily, caused the 2008 Recession?
- Central banks in America and Europe failed to respond to economic movements, and caused a recession by being overly-tight (although, I do think over-indebtedness was also a serious problem)

843
Serious / Sam Harris podcast
« on: April 29, 2015, 01:17:54 PM »
Sam Harris recently released a podcast (an AMA to be specfic) in which he discusses atheism, artificial intelligence, rape, public speaking, meditation, consciousness, free will, intellectual honesty and other stuff.

Pretty interesting, so I dropped it here.

844
Serious / Russell Brand interviews Ed Miliband
« on: April 29, 2015, 12:48:54 PM »
YouTube


A puerile narcissist and an incompetent twat walk into a bar. . .

845
The Flood / Just found a blog with a beautiful "about me" section
« on: April 28, 2015, 03:25:56 PM »
Quote
Artist, radical feminist, mathematician/physicist in training, queer spinster in training, tricoteuse, cat lady, Wobbly, anarcho-bike punk, Earth First!er, dance fiend, hairy legged prude & theorist with a PTSD/BPD (dis)Ability who can be seen toting about math books, an accordion, juggling balls, or placards any day of the week. (And quite possibly a camera)

triggered

846
The Telegraph
Quote
Last month, we are told, the world enjoyed “its hottest March since records began in 1880”. This year, according to “US government scientists”, already bids to outrank 2014 as “the hottest ever”. The figures from the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) were based, like all the other three official surface temperature records on which the world’s scientists and politicians rely, on data compiled from a network of weather stations by NOAA’s Global Historical Climate Network (GHCN).

But here there is a puzzle. These temperature records are not the only ones with official status. The other two, Remote Sensing Systems (RSS) and the University of Alabama (UAH), are based on a quite different method of measuring temperature data, by satellites. And these, as they have increasingly done in recent years, give a strikingly different picture. Neither shows last month as anything like the hottest March on record, any more than they showed 2014 as “the hottest year ever”.

Back in January and February, two items in this column attracted more than 42,000 comments to the Telegraph website from all over the world. The provocative headings given to them were “Climategate the sequel: how we are still being tricked by flawed data on global warming” and “The fiddling with temperature data is the biggest scientific scandal”.

My cue for those pieces was the evidence multiplying from across the world that something very odd has been going on with those official surface temperature records, all of which ultimately rely on data compiled by NOAA’s GHCN. Careful analysts have come up with hundreds of examples of how the original data recorded by 3,000-odd weather stations has been “adjusted”, to exaggerate the degree to which the Earth has actually been warming. Figures from earlier decades have repeatedly been adjusted downwards and more recent data adjusted upwards, to show the Earth having warmed much more dramatically than the original data justified.

So strong is the evidence that all this calls for proper investigation that my articles have now brought a heavyweight response. The Global Warming Policy Foundation (GWPF) has enlisted an international team of five distinguished scientists to carry out a full inquiry into just how far these manipulations of the data may have distorted our picture of what is really happening to global temperatures.

The panel is chaired by Terence Kealey, until recently vice-chancellor of the University of Buckingham. His team, all respected experts in their field with many peer-reviewed papers to their name, includes Dr Peter Chylek, a physicist from the National Los Alamos Laboratory; Richard McNider, an emeritus professor who founded the Atmospheric Sciences Programme at the University of Alabama; Professor Roman Mureika from Canada, an expert in identifying errors in statistical methodology; Professor Roger Pielke Sr, a noted climatologist from the University of Colorado, and Professor William van Wijngaarden, a physicist whose many papers on climatology have included studies in the use of “homogenisation” in data records.

Their inquiry’s central aim will be to establish a comprehensive view of just how far the original data has been “adjusted” by the three main surface records: those published by the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (Giss), the US National Climate Data Center and Hadcrut, that compiled by the East Anglia Climatic Research Unit (Cru), in conjunction with the UK Met Office’s Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction. All of them are run by committed believers in man-made global warming.

For this the GWPF panel is initially inviting input from all those analysts across the world who have already shown their expertise in comparing the originally recorded data with that finally published. In particular, they will be wanting to establish a full and accurate picture of just how much of the published record has been adjusted in a way which gives the impression that temperatures have been rising faster and further than was indicated by the raw measured data.

Already studies based on the US, Australia, New Zealand, the Arctic and South America have suggested that this is far too often the case.

But only when the full picture is in will it be possible to see just how far the scare over global warming has been driven by manipulation of figures accepted as reliable by the politicians who shape our energy policy, and much else besides. If the panel’s findings eventually confirm what we have seen so far, this really will be the “smoking gun”, in a scandal the scale and significance of which for all of us can scarcely be exaggerated.

This should prove interesting.

847
Well then.
Quote
With this being budget week, the federal government’s taxing and spending decisions are under the microscope — as they should be in a healthy democracy. But what about government’s hidden tax: regulation? With no equivalent of a federal budget day, regulatory decisions and their implications get precious little scrutiny and we are all worse for it.

Thankfully, regulatory transparency got a considerable boost Thursday when the Red Tape Reduction Act (C-21) received Royal Assent and became law. Minister Tony Clement, who has championed the bill, can be proud that Canada is now the first country in the world to require that for every new regulation introduced one of equivalent burden must be removed.

C-21, has been operating as policy for several years already, which means that the costs of new rules must be quantified and equal or greater costs removed. It essentially caps the cost of rules coming directly from regulations. Government rules can also come from legislation and policy so the one-for-one rule is not a cap on the cost of all government rules. Still, it is a very good start.

Why is this so important? Regulation, both necessary and unnecessary (red tape), are a huge hidden tax on all Canadians. The latest estimate from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business suggests that regulation costs $37 billion a year. To be clear, not all of these costs could or should be eliminated. But Canada’s small business owners suggest that about 30 per cent of these costs, $11 billion, could be eliminated with no negative impact on human health, safety or the environment. This number seems reasonable given that British Columbia has reduced its regulatory requirements over the past decade by over 40 per cent with no one arguing the cuts had any serious negative impacts.

Prime Minister Harper calls red tape a “silent killer of jobs.” He’s right. One of the disturbing findings from CFIB’s recent report is that one in four of today’s business owners would not advise their kids to go into business given the current burden of complying with government rules. But discouraging businesses from starting is just the beginning of red tape’s negative impacts. Red tape wastes valuable time that could be spent doing any number of other things like serving customers, learning new skills, or enjoying family. For consumers, it increases prices and reduces choices.

Red tape’s most destructive impact is that it undermines the relationship between government and its citizens. Struggling with confusing language, getting put on hold for excessive periods of time, getting bad compliance advice from government agents or running up against a dumb, costly rule shakes one’s faith that the taxes we pay are working for us not against us. Small businesses often comment on CFIB’s surveys that they “feel like the enemy” when dealing with government.

In this context, it’s reassuring that C-21 received near unanimous support, with some opposition critics arguing that it doesn’t go far enough. While the one-for-one rule does not explicitly reduce the burden of red tape, it has gone beyond just capping new regulatory costs. In 2012-13, it saved small businesses 98,000 hours and $20 million.

Two other reforms announced in 2012 as part of the federal Red Tape Action Plan are important to make government’s hidden tax more visible. The government recently published a 36-department inventory of 129,860 regulatory requirements that will be tracked annually. This inventory will allow for an overall assessment of whether regulatory activity is increasing or decreasing in the same way we can currently track whether government spending and taxes are increasing or decreasing.

The other important reform is that each department is now required to publish and track performance against service standards. For example, a department could publish a standard of a 15 day turn-around time for a permit, the goal of meeting that standard 90 per cent of the time and results against that goal. Government departments don’t have the same strong incentive to keep service high that businesses have because they are not subject to the discipline of competition. Publishing service expectations and results is therefore critical to ensure some accountability.

Taken together these reforms have the potential to give Canadians a much clearer picture of the impact of government’s regulatory activity. Making the hidden tax of regulation more visible deserves our applause and attention. Maybe soon we will have a regulatory accounting day that gets as much profile as budget day does.

I'm on the fence about whether or not C-21 is a good idea.

848
Serious / Favourite philosophical/political quotes
« on: April 24, 2015, 02:54:26 PM »
"If I have seen further [than those before me], it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Isaac Newton.

"What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power, power itself in man. What is bad? All that proceeds from weakness." - Friedrich Nietzsche.

 "Active, successful natures shun the dictum 'know thyself' and follow the commandment: 'Will thyself.'" - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right." - Isaac Asimov.

"Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others." - Christopher Hitchens.

"Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence." - Christopher Hitchens.

""If ever a man is to achieve anything like dignity, it can happen only if superior men are given absolute freedom to think what they want to think and say what they want to say." - H.L. Mencken.

"Trust is good. Control is better." - Lenin.

"I have written on all sorts of subjects and yet I have no enemies, except indeed all the Whigs, all the Tories and all the Christians." - David Hume.

"Mohammed praises [instances of] tretchery, inhumanity, cruelty, revenge, and bigotry that are utterly incompatible with civilized society." - David Hume.

"An empty throne always tempts me." - Napoleon.

"If I fail it is only because I have too much pride and ambition." - Caesar.


849
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/lara-prendergast/2015/04/white-people-have-now-been-banned-from-an-anti-racism-event-at-a-british-university/

Quote
Bahar Mustafa, the Welfare and Diversity officer for Goldsmiths Students’ Union, must have a strong sense of irony. You’d have to, to run an ‘anti-racism’ event which states that ‘if you’re a man and/or white PLEASE DON’T COME. As the student publication the Tabreports, the event claims to be ‘challenging the white-centric culture of occupations’, ‘diversifying our curriculum’ and building a ‘cross campus campaign that puts liberation at the heart of the movement’.

Back in February, Mustafa, who describes herself on Twitter as a ‘queer, anti-racist feminist killjoy’,came to my attention when she helped organise a ‘BME ONLY social’ before a screening of the film Dear White People. For those not acquainted with the lingo, this means for Black and Minority Ethnic only.

And now this, essentially the proposition of racial segregation in a British university. And yes, it’s trussed up in the language of the new PC – ‘non-binary’, ‘safe-space’, ‘BME Women’, ‘OUR liberation’ – but there are no two ways about this: this is division along racial lines, and it is astonishing that this is deemed acceptable. It wouldn’t be tolerated anywhere else in Britain - so why on earth is it being tolerated at a British university?

God damn it. Fuck these SJW tumblrites.

850
Serious / All anti-capitalists are Bolsheviks
« on: April 20, 2015, 01:55:23 PM »
I don't care how social democratic you are, as long as you appreciate capitalism as a system which broadly produces value at some measure.
Spoiler
I should clarify that it's entirely possible for intelligent people to reject capitalism on its own merits, and that's fine. That's good, let's have a discussion. But if you're doing any of the below, go fuck yourself.

What I hate are these socialist libertarians and followers of Noam Chomsky who promulgate bullshit ideas about ideological hegemony and indoctrination; how the working class are tricked into being content with the system, how they simply don't know any better.

The paternalism is unending. "Of course they're content with the system relative to a socialist revolution, they're conditioned to be". They're too stupid to know any better is what it comes down to. Fucking embarrassing that I used to be one of them.

No matter how hard they try, the anarchists and the libertarian Marxists and the Chomskyites will never get rid of the toxic, Stalinist paternalism that ran through the Bolsheviks and their evil revolution.

851
The Flood / My body is a cage
« on: April 18, 2015, 02:40:04 PM »
YouTube

That keeps me from dancing,
With the one I love,
My mind holds the key.

852
Serious / Stephen Fry on God
« on: April 18, 2015, 08:45:38 AM »
YouTube


Whether you agree or disagree, you've gotta love him.

853
The Flood / There are things I have done
« on: April 17, 2015, 07:31:45 PM »
YouTube

There's a place, I have gone.
There's a beast, and I let it run.
Now it's running my way.

854
The Flood / lol, just found a picture of kinder
« on: April 17, 2015, 11:36:38 AM »

855


It's fairly simple.

If you want to reduce poverty, use wage subsidies.

856
The Flood / Should Kiyo get her rat out?
« on: April 14, 2015, 02:50:04 PM »
T4R

857
Serious / The SJW Left strikes again
« on: April 14, 2015, 01:54:23 PM »


Some fucking people.

858
The Flood / oh god, this fucking headline
« on: April 13, 2015, 07:16:52 AM »


it's too much

859
Serious / The Recession from a Neoclassical perspective
« on: April 12, 2015, 02:11:27 PM »
An old paper from Lee E. Ohanian. Since most of you won't read it, I'll give a simple walk-through.

The theory/models
The Recession in the US over the course of 2007-8 was significant because lower output/income seems to have come almost exclusively from a drop in labour input, whereas most other recessions (and the '08 Recession in other countries) are to do with falls in productivity. I can't copy the graph used in the paper, but it shows an uncharacteristically large drop in hours worked per capita. According to Ohanian, current models which incorporate financial distress are not yet good enough to account for such a large deviation.

And there is evidence that what occurred in the US was different from other high-income countries. The fall in output and consumption (averaged across Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the United Kingdom) is 8.5pc, similar to the US's 7.2pc, and 4.8pc, similar to the US's 5.4pc respectively. But the average per capita employment decline from 2007Q4 to 2009Q3 in those high income countries is just 2pc, to the US's 6.7pc. So there's obviously something interesting happening in the American labour market.

Using a fairly standard neoclassical business cycle model; there is a production function which models inputs and outputs, a household time allocation decision between market time and leisure and a consumption/investment allocation decision. However, when we plug the actual data into the model we will see deviations; output will not be where the production function means it ought to be. The deviations we will see will offer a diagnostic basis with which we can examine the causes of the Recession.

The hours worked during the 2007-8 Recession in the US are much too low relative to the marginal product of labour, meaning something in the economy is acting like a tax on labour and depressing the incentive to work, and it appears this wedge in labour is the biggest factor. The choice that households make to work over leisure time (that is, the marginal rate of substitution between consumption and leisure) should be equal to the marginal product of labour. The average deviation for a post-WWII recession is 2.4pc (meaning the marginal product is exceeding the marginal rate of substitution), whereas the deviation in 2007-8 is 12.9pc. The average labour deviation for other high income countries was just 0.9pc.

There was almost no capital deviation in the US or other high-income countries (at just +0.3pc and +0.1pc respectively). However, there is a significant productivity deviation for non-US countries at no less than 6pc individually, and an average of 7.1pc. There is, however, almost no productivity decline in the US, different from previous post-war recessions like 73-74 and 81-82, which showed decreases in TFP or real output per hour. According to Ohanian, also, the labour market deviation can account for virtually all of the 2007-9 downturn. This is also similar, in some respects, to the Great Depression, which also had an incredibly significant labour deviation.

Explaining the Recession
Ohanian notes that the primary narrative of the Great Recession is the "financial explanation", which states that around mid-2008 the Recession significantly worsened as some asset-backed securities began to decline in value and sub-prime mortgages began to turn toxic, putting stress on the financial system. However, the idea that the financial system (or the capital market) could cause such massive fluctuations in economic well-being is challenged by the idea that in both US and non-US economies the capital deviation was incredibly minor. And, according to Ohanian, it doesn't explain the labour deviation.

Ohanian goes on to note how issues in the financial system aren't necessarily correlated with economic downturn. The 40pc declination in banks between 1929-1933 were mostly the result of mergers and small bank failures, meaning very little disintermediation. He also challenges Milton Friedman's hypothesis of the Great Depression--which is essentially the idea that money contracted too much--by showing how industrial hours worked had declined by 29pc between Jan. 1929 and Oct. 1930.

So instead Ohanian offers a policy-driven explanation, claiming that the 2008 tax rebate, TARP, ARRA, Cash for Clunkers and other policies contributed significantly. Through their design, these policies distorted incentives and led to uncertainty about the underlying shape of the economy. For example, the effect of US Treasury mortgage modifications was to impose a de facto income tax rate of over 100pc on some households, and interest rate spreads as well as domestic and foreign stock prices deteriorated much more quickly following the announcement of TARP than they did at the failure of Lehman Brothers.

However, more research is needed into the labour deviation of 2007-9 to explain just why it occurred. It is thought that the labour deviation of the 1930s occurred because of cartelisation and unionisation policies pushed by Hoover and Roosevelt which raised wages above competitive levels and reduced employment.

In conclusion/TL;DR
Neoclassical economics points to a disequilibrium in the labour market in order to explain the severity of both the Depression and the Recession. Significant labour deviations during 2007-9 only seem to be a function of the US economy, as other high-income countries saw significant productivity deviations but little labour deviation.

861
The Flood / dank tunes bro
« on: April 11, 2015, 11:53:34 AM »
YouTube


check it out

its dank

862
The Flood / Just got recognised while at the store
« on: April 11, 2015, 11:37:26 AM »
Still no fucking clue who the guy was, though. It was embarrassing.

863
The Flood / IT'S WHO WE ARE
« on: April 09, 2015, 05:58:21 PM »
YouTube


DOESN'T MATTER IF WE'VE GONE TOO FAR

864
The Flood / somebody meme up my avatar. . . make it dank
« on: April 09, 2015, 05:57:03 PM »


maybe some memeglasses

sparking up a 420 doob

a fedora would be nice too

865
The Flood / fucking normalfags
« on: April 09, 2015, 05:49:48 PM »

866
The Flood / hey challenger
« on: April 09, 2015, 05:47:23 PM »
How'd my mom's cock taste?

867
The Flood / Book thread #1,337
« on: April 09, 2015, 05:37:05 PM »
So, what the fuck have you just finished? What the fuck are you reading? What the fuck are you going to read? What the fuck are you going to buy in order to read?

I'm currently reading a biography of FDR by Jean Edward Smith (it's a bit dry), the third book of Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations and The Map and the Territory 2.0 by Alan Greenspan.

After I've finished those three, I'll be starting: The Problems of Philosophy by Bertrand Russell, Napoleon the Great by Andrew Roberts, The Quest for Cosmic Justice by Thomas Sowell, House of Debt by Mian and Sufi and A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.

On my Amazon wishlist I have: A Monetary History of the United States by Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz, The Great Stagnation by Tyler Cowen, Wittgenstein: A Very Short Introduction by A.C. Grayling, The Antelope Strategy: Living in Rwanda After the Genocide by Jean Hatzfeld, Terror and Liberalism by Paul Berman and Our Mathematical Universe by Max Tegmark.

868
Serious / Oh God, I can already hear the rumble of American tanks
« on: April 09, 2015, 12:27:38 PM »
Large oil discovery near Gatwick airport
Quote
Last year, the firm drilled a well at Horse Hill, near Gatwick airport, and analysis of that well suggests the local area could hold 158 million barrels of oil per square mile.

But only a fraction of the 100 billion total would be recovered, UKOG admits.

The North Sea has produced about 45 billion barrels in 40 years.

"We think we've found a very significant discovery here, probably the largest [onshore in the UK] in the last 30 years, and we think it has national significance," Stephen Sanderson, UKOG's chief executive told the BBC.

UKOG says that the majority of the oil lies within the Upper Jurassic Kimmeridge formation at a depth of between 2,500ft (762m) and 3,000ft (914m).

869
Serious / Southern EU states convinced they can survive a Grexit
« on: April 09, 2015, 06:53:33 AM »
Financial Times.

Quote
Policy makers in Italy, Portugal and Spain say their economies and financial systems are strong enough to survive a Greek departure from the eurozone, but they acknowledge that Grexit might set a precedent replete with risks for Europe’s 60-year-old integration project.

Government officials and independent analysts in Lisbon, Madrid and Rome say a chaotic Greek abandonment of the euro, bringing widespread economic distress and social upheaval in its wake, would serve as a cautionary shock and probably weaken anti-euro political forces in countries exposed to possible contagion from Greece.

According to José Ignacio Torreblanca, head of the Madrid office of the European Council on Foreign Relations think-tank, a Grexit would not be good for Podemos, Spain’s new radical leftist party, which has high hopes of success in national parliamentary elections due at the end of this year.

“I’m not saying this would destroy Podemos, but it would possibly spoil their plans to be the main force of the left,” he said. This explains why the party is already distancing itself from Syriza, the governing Greek party that is in some respects its ideological sister movement, he added.

On the other hand, a Grexit that was carefully managed and led to economic recovery in Greece, albeit after five to 10 years, might strengthen populist parties such as Italy’s Northern League and Five-Star Movement, which contend that eurozone membership has been little short of a national economic disaster.

The lessons to be drawn from Grexit would also depend on whether Greece was able to keep its EU membership, whether its democratic institutions and the rule of law remained intact, whether it aligned itself more closely with Russia or other foreign powers, and whether there were dangerous consequences for regional security in southeast Europe.

For government officials and foreign policy analysts in Rome, one big concern is that a Greek departure from Europe’s monetary union would weaken the push for a deeper political union that Italy has always supported.

For a Greek exit would not only show, for the first time since the 1950s, that European integration can break down and even go into reverse. It would also damage the EU’s image as a club that always looks after its weaker member states — no small matter for the 18 EU member states that have smaller populations than Greece’s 10.8m.

Cyprus, Ireland, Portugal and Spain each followed Greece in requiring emergency rescues from their European partners and the International Monetary Fund between 2010 and 2013. But, with the partial exception of Cyprus, each has emerged from its crisis with healthier public finances, more stable banks and better economic growth prospects.

The European Central Bank’s evolution in 2012 into a more credible “lender of last resort”, willing to buy vast amounts of government bonds in order to protect the eurozone’s unity, and the ECB’s current quantitative easing programme have increased the confidence of southern European governments in their ability to ride out storms originating in Greece.

In one typical comment, Rui Machete, Portugal’s foreign minister, said recently that a Greek exit from the eurozone would be “worrying” but “not tragic for Portugal”.

However, Portugal’s public debt peaked last year at 130 per cent of gross domestic product, and the combined level of corporate and household debt is even higher. Moody’s, the credit rating agency, said in a report last week that “Portugal’s external vulnerability remains high, given its high external debt levels, and the country would be susceptible” if investor confidence took a hit from a Greek exit.

Officials in Lisbon, Madrid and Rome point to their countries’ very low government bond yields as proof that there is no threat on the horizon. “The EU is much more solid than it was in 2011 and 2012,” one Italian official said.
However, such confidence begs the question of how solid the eurozone will look once the ECB withdraws its exceptional support measures — as is likely after two years or so — and in the event of a 2008-style financial maelstrom.

Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, the former French president, is among those who say Greece ought to leave the eurozone, at least temporarily, in what he calls “a friendly exit”.

“It is absurd to say this would be a failure of Europe. Greece still has its place in the EU. By leaving the euro, it would only be joining countries such as the UK, Sweden, the Czech Republic and so on, which haven’t adopted it. Better still, this exit would permit Greece to return at a later date,” he told the financial newspaper Les Echos.

870


Sometimes I sit and think to myself, "What would the world be like if Hitler did manage to fucking kill all the queers?"

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