Your most controversial opinions

Mad Max · June 09, 2015, 09:44:37 PM

Quote from: Pendulate on June 09, 2015, 09:31:27 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:13:06 PM
Quote from: Pendulate on June 09, 2015, 09:06:20 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 08:58:19 PM
another one:

addicts are weak.
Do you think people suffering from depression are weak?
Nope. But you can't just...stop being depressed. You are able to stop drinking, doing drugs, having sex, etc.
It's far more complicated than that. You can't "will" yourself out of addiction any more than you can will yourself out of depression.

you can stop yourself from going to the store and buying a 6 pack and drinking it in one sitting before going to work that day. that's a very specific set of steps you could have entirely avoided by choice.

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 09:46:30 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:43:53 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 09, 2015, 09:35:28 PM
unless you don't consider meat-eaters to be addicts

which i do
you consider meat eaters to be addicts?

Absolutely.

Especially if you concede that consuming it is wrong. Because if you concede that it's wrong, you have an obligation to stop. But most people continue anyway. "Because it tastes good." That's called an addiction.

What else is it? I'm just calling it what it is.

Mad Max · June 09, 2015, 09:49:04 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 09, 2015, 09:46:30 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:43:53 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 09, 2015, 09:35:28 PM
unless you don't consider meat-eaters to be addicts

which i do
you consider meat eaters to be addicts?
Absolutely.

Especially if you concede that consuming it is wrong. Because if you concede that it's wrong, you have an obligation to stop. But most people continue anyway. "Because it tastes good." That's called an addiction.

What else is it? I'm just calling it what it is.

meat also contains some vitamins and minerals that you otherwise need to take vitamins or supplements for, soooo...

it's part of the natural order of things. our bodies are supposed to digest meat. other animals eat other animals.

it's just how things work.

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 09:50:10 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:49:04 PM

meat also contains some vitamins and minerals that you otherwise need to take vitamins or supplements for, soooo...

...Right. So take the vitamins and supplements. They're there, and they're readily available. There's no excuse.

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 09:51:02 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:49:04 PM

our bodies are supposed to digest meat.

LOL

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:49:04 PM

other animals eat other animals.

And? We're smarter than those animals. We have the capacity NOT to do that.

Azumarill · June 09, 2015, 09:51:23 PM

verby saw the lion king as a kid and it really fucked him up forever about the circle of life

Deleted · June 09, 2015, 09:52:14 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:44:37 PM

Quote from: Pendulate on June 09, 2015, 09:31:27 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:13:06 PM
Quote from: Pendulate on June 09, 2015, 09:06:20 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 08:58:19 PM
another one:

addicts are weak.
Do you think people suffering from depression are weak?
Nope. But you can't just...stop being depressed. You are able to stop drinking, doing drugs, having sex, etc.
It's far more complicated than that. You can't "will" yourself out of addiction any more than you can will yourself out of depression.
you can stop yourself from going to the store and buying a 6 pack and drinking it in one sitting before going to work that day. that's a very specific set of steps you could have entirely avoided by choice.

To be fair, physical dependancy is a thing that is seperate from simple weak mindednes. As well some people are more inclined by genetics to become adicts

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 09:52:28 PM

Quote from: Azumarill on June 09, 2015, 09:51:23 PM

verby saw the lion king as a kid and it really fucked him up forever about the circle of life

I'm not sure what the "circle of life" has to do with eating meat.

Mad Max · June 09, 2015, 09:53:44 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 09, 2015, 09:51:02 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:49:04 PM
our bodies are supposed to digest meat.
LOL

lol all you want, it's true.

Mad Max · June 09, 2015, 09:54:25 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 09, 2015, 09:50:10 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:49:04 PM
meat also contains some vitamins and minerals that you otherwise need to take vitamins or supplements for, soooo...
...Right. So take the vitamins and supplements. They're there, and they're readily available. There's no excuse.

why take supplements for something that is available naturally?

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 09:55:34 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:53:44 PM

lol all you want, it's true.

Try eating some raw meat and see how well you digest that shit.

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:54:25 PM

why take supplements for something that is available naturally?

Because it doesn't involve the torture and murder of sentient creatures.

Duh.

Mad Max · June 09, 2015, 09:56:59 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 09, 2015, 09:55:34 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:53:44 PM
lol all you want, it's true.
Try eating some raw meat and see how well you digest that shit.

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:54:25 PM
why take supplements for something that is available naturally?
Because it doesn't involve the torture and murder of sentient creatures.

Duh.

why do you care about the torture and murder of sentient creatures? i thought you were all about avoiding living.

Deleted · June 09, 2015, 09:57:10 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:54:25 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 09, 2015, 09:50:10 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:49:04 PM
meat also contains some vitamins and minerals that you otherwise need to take vitamins or supplements for, soooo...
...Right. So take the vitamins and supplements. They're there, and they're readily available. There's no excuse.
why take supplements for something that is available naturally?

No use arguing with him on meat eating. He's convined that it's evil and he won't change his oppinion

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 10:06:55 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:56:59 PM

why do you care about the torture and murder of sentient creatures? i thought you were all about avoiding living.

...jesus christ...

The only thing I'm "all about avoiding" is childbirth, specifically because I care so much about the suffering of the living. You couldn't have missed the first two of my controversial opinions in this thread, even if you were unfamiliar with what I actually believe.

1. Having kids is wrong (for a wide variety of reasons; namely that it's an imposition, and that life is mostly negative)
2. The only thing with any intrinsic value in the universe is suffering.

so of course i care about the torture of ALL sentient beings

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 10:08:49 PM

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 09, 2015, 09:57:10 PM

No use arguing with him on meat eating. He's convined that it's evil and he won't change his oppinion

why would i change my opinion

our impasse:
is there a difference between a human getting stabbed and a pig getting stabbed?
i say no, you say yes

you haven't been able to define the difference to me

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 10:18:18 PM

We're straying from the initial point of contention, too--I really don't have any desire to argue veganism in this of all threads.

If a philosophical vegan (someone who merely concedes veganism as a logically valid philosophy*) in the first world can't stop eating meat because of some personal reason, what else is that other than a psychological addiction?

*by which i mean, they admit that torturing and killing other animals for our personal gain is wrong--they're not just saying, "oh, you're a vegan? cool! i totally respect your decision!" or something stupid like that

Deleted · June 09, 2015, 10:24:35 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 09, 2015, 10:08:49 PM

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 09, 2015, 09:57:10 PM
No use arguing with him on meat eating. He's convined that it's evil and he won't change his oppinion
why would i change my opinion

our impasse:
is there a difference between a human getting stabbed and a pig getting stabbed?
i say no, you say yes

you haven't been able to define the difference to me

I have in other threads. but let's not get back into that now.

Mordo · June 09, 2015, 10:28:24 PM

-Government is necessary, but often does more bad than good in the economic sphere
-Feminism has gone off the fucking rails in western society
-Mentally challenged or disabled people should be able to be aborted if there was a technology that allowed parents to be informed of the possibility that their offspring may be inflicted with such conditions
-I'm not sure if transgenderism should be bracketed in with the LGBT movement
-There is such a thing as black culture that influences black people to commit crime, and should be tackled such as Islam should be tackled
-There shouldn't be a minimum wage
-Businesses should be allowed to discriminate whoever they like
-The NHS is in need of a serious reformation

Tyger · June 09, 2015, 10:29:10 PM

So we shouldn't eat meat but we should force women to get abortions?

OT: I don't think it's ethical for a person with a high likelihood of passing on a hereditary disorder (anything from Tay-Sachs to dwarfism) to choose to have a child rather than adopt

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 10:30:50 PM

Quote from: Tyger on June 09, 2015, 10:29:10 PM

So we shouldn't eat meat but we should force women to get abortions?

yes

ideally, no woman should be opposed to getting an abortion anyway, ethically speaking

i like how you're trying to imply that those two statements contradict each other somehow, when they clearly have absolutely nothing to do with each other

Deleted · June 09, 2015, 10:32:58 PM

Quote from: Tyger on June 09, 2015, 10:29:10 PM

So we shouldn't eat meat but we should force women to get abortions?

Joy has no meaning to verb so dont bother

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 10:33:31 PM

joy has nothing to do with anything

i might derive great joy from torturing my worst enemy--but i wouldn't ever do it

Kodyack · June 09, 2015, 10:56:47 PM

Verb.. Verb never changes.

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 10:58:22 PM

yes i have

i wasn't a vegan three years ago :^)

Jive Turkey · June 10, 2015, 12:10:19 AM

Verb I have a question, what defines your "objective system of value math." morality stuff. Like what makes you think something is moral vs not(I know you said morality doesn't exist it's just the thing I have in quotes, i can't think of another word for it lol)

I guess mine would be that I think all steroids should be legal

Verbatim · June 10, 2015, 12:40:05 AM

Quote from: Jive Turkey on June 10, 2015, 12:10:19 AM

Verb I have a question, what defines your "objective system of value math." morality stuff. Like what makes you think something is moral vs not(I know you said morality doesn't exist it's just the thing I have in quotes, i can't think of another word for it lol)

"Ethics" works.
The reason I don't like "morality" is because it implies dogma--or an absolute law.
I don't like absolute laws. It's important that laws be malleable.

This value system allows for us to look at individual events and evaluate them on a case-by-case basis.

As we all know, there's only two types of value--positive value, and negative value. These values are derived from our sensations--namely, our capacity to feel pain and pleasure. Pain is an inherently negative value, and is the most important value.

Once we establish those fundamental truths, we can essentially evaluate any scenario to see if it's running a "profit". A scenario is only running a profit if the total positive value of the situation outweighs the negative value. Simple enough, right?

So, let's say you're sitting on your ass and eating an ice cream cone. But just outside, you see something terrible--a woman is trapped under a tipped truck with her kids, and it's about to explode, Grand Theft Auto style. Now, you could keep sitting on your ass and eating your ice cream, and enjoy the show, or you could make an attempt to rescue those people.

I mean, you can tell that there's a pretty obvious better option in that scenario. That's the value math system at work. The family's rescue is worth far more than your personal desire to have ice cream.

Now, we can come up with harder and harder scenarios all day, but that's basically the system. Sometimes, you'll be forced to choose not necessarily the "best" option, but the least worst option. But there's always a correct option.

tl;dr
Put it simply:
An act is ethical if there is a net positive outcome.
An act is unethical if there is a net negative outcome.

All value is calculable, if you're willing to put your mind to it.

More Than Mortal · June 10, 2015, 03:23:09 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 09, 2015, 08:15:17 PM

i guess i'll have to add, "if you support women's rights, you are a feminist--no exceptions" to my list

Given the current movement's willingness to say this in conversation, regardless of the shit they've spouted previously, I find that statement incredibly disingenuous.

More Than Mortal · June 10, 2015, 03:27:01 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 09, 2015, 10:08:49 PM

you haven't been able to define the difference to me

It's possible humans suffer more when stabbed.

Pendulate · June 10, 2015, 03:29:28 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:44:37 PM

Quote from: Pendulate on June 09, 2015, 09:31:27 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 09:13:06 PM
Quote from: Pendulate on June 09, 2015, 09:06:20 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 08:58:19 PM
another one:

addicts are weak.
Do you think people suffering from depression are weak?
Nope. But you can't just...stop being depressed. You are able to stop drinking, doing drugs, having sex, etc.
It's far more complicated than that. You can't "will" yourself out of addiction any more than you can will yourself out of depression.
you can stop yourself from going to the store and buying a 6 pack and drinking it in one sitting before going to work that day. that's a very specific set of steps you could have entirely avoided by choice.

You're using rhetoric, though. The truth of the matter is that you can't conjure willpower out of thin air, whether that is to cure your depression or to stop feeding your addiction.

If an addiction could simply be avoided by choice, it wouldn't be an addiction. There are deep psychological issues involved that render the concept of 'choice' largely irrelevant.

More Than Mortal · June 10, 2015, 03:33:03 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on June 10, 2015, 03:29:28 AM

The truth of the matter is that you can't conjure willpower out of thin air

Yes, you can. Of course you can. All you need to do is not be psychologically ill.

I mean, come on.