When discussing gendered issues, the opinions of the subject gender matter more.

Verbatim · May 22, 2016, 07:23:39 PM

yes or no

Ian · May 22, 2016, 07:54:35 PM

Depends on the subject and how it's worded. Can't really pin one gender on say "Why do men serve in the draft but not women?"

DAS B00T x2 · May 22, 2016, 07:55:51 PM

Sometimes, I guess.
But on social issues, the only opinion that ever matters is mine, because I'm always right.

Verbatim · May 22, 2016, 07:59:25 PM

Quote from: Ian on May 22, 2016, 07:54:35 PM

Depends on the subject and how it's worded. Can't really pin one gender on say "Why do men serve in the draft but not women?"

I wouldn't call that a "gendered issue," in that case. I mean any issue that only directly implicates one of the genders.

Like, abortion. A lot of men abstain from having an opinion on abortion, because they believe that it's none of their business, and that it's for women to sort out for themselves.

Personally, I find it harder to take men's opinions on feminism seriously. If a woman is critical of feminism in some way, I'm more likely to listen to her than I am to listen to a guy. Is that wrong of me?

Then there's circumcision. Should women's opinions on circumcision matter as much as men's? Or should they even have an opinion at all, like with the abortion thing?

Ian · May 22, 2016, 08:07:47 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 22, 2016, 07:59:25 PM

Like, abortion. A lot of men abstain from having an opinion on abortion, because they believe that it's none of their business, and that it's for women to sort out for themselves.

You could have a man's opinion matter quite a bit if it was on the subject of the fact that he wants to keep the child and she doesn't, and they wrote a prenup stating as much beforehand. I know that's incredibly specific but that's one instance where I feel a man's opinion would matter.

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Personally, I find it harder to take men's opinions on feminism seriously. If a woman is critical of feminism in some way, I'm more likely to listen to her than I am to listen to a guy. Is that wrong of me?

I wouldn't say so but from what my own female professors would tell me about the word Feminism, it's supposed to umbrella equality for both genders and not just one. I guess more modern day feminists however have changed their views on that.

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Then there's circumcision. Should women's opinions on circumcision matter as much as men's? Or should they even have an opinion at all, like with the abortion thing?

Considering that circumcision exists for both sexes.....

Verbatim · May 22, 2016, 08:09:00 PM

Quote from: Ian on May 22, 2016, 08:07:47 PM

Considering that circumcision exists for both sexes.....

removing foreskin =/= removing basically everything about the vagina that makes it a vagina

there is no perfect facsimile of male cicumcision for females, and comparing the two is ridiculous and ignorant

Ian · May 22, 2016, 08:14:25 PM

I never said that wasn't the case, I should have also stated that different procedures are obviously going to have different opinions/reactions to it. Circumcision would be one such example of that.

Quote from: Verbatim on May 22, 2016, 08:09:00 PM

removing foreskin =/= removing basically everything about the vagina that makes it a vagina

there is no perfect facsimile of male cicumcision for females, and comparing the two is ridiculous and ignorant

Verbatim · May 22, 2016, 08:14:59 PM

okay good

Super Irish · May 22, 2016, 09:43:42 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 22, 2016, 07:59:25 PM

Personally, I find it harder to take men's opinions on feminism seriously. If a woman is critical of feminism in some way, I'm more likely to listen to her than I am to listen to a guy. Is that wrong of me?

I'm not sure about the others, but that seems a tad off to me.

I mean, feminism is supposed to be about bringing equality, yet even as a supporter (as naturally most people are for equal rights), you hold a lower value towards one gender simply because their gender.

That's just contradictory. Unless, somehow, all the men you've ever had a discussion with about feminism have been retards, and that's quite a long stretch at best, a generalisation based on gender at worst.

Verbatim · May 22, 2016, 09:48:06 PM

Quote from: PsygnI on May 22, 2016, 09:43:42 PM

That's just contradictory. Unless, somehow, all the men you've ever had a discussion with about feminism have been retards, and that's quite a long stretch at best, a generalisation based on gender at worst.

it's kinda true though

Super Irish · May 22, 2016, 09:57:10 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 22, 2016, 09:48:06 PM

Quote from: PsygnI on May 22, 2016, 09:43:42 PM
That's just contradictory. Unless, somehow, all the men you've ever had a discussion with about feminism have been retards, and that's quite a long stretch at best, a generalisation based on gender at worst.
it's kinda true though

Which one? Retarded or generalising?

Mordo · May 22, 2016, 10:03:05 PM

Can't really see what that would achieve, no.

Word Wizard · May 22, 2016, 10:04:33 PM

I don't think that merely being the opposite gender should negatively influence someone's credibility or mean that people should dismiss them. It opens the door for bias. Facts and logic are genderless (tips fedora). If a man is wrong about a gender issue, anyone should be able to gauge his claims based off the two. Vice versa, if a woman claims to know more or be right about a subject, she should be able to demonstrate or provide the means of how she came her conclusion.

It's almost like an appeal to authority. It would seem similar as to say poor people shouldn't have a valid opinion on rules for the rich because they themselves are not or that atheists who haven't "experienced" God be immediately docked points.

Verbatim · May 22, 2016, 10:04:43 PM

Quote from: PsygnI on May 22, 2016, 09:57:10 PM

Which one? Retarded or generalising?

all men i've ever had a discussion with about feminism have been retards
(unless they're already feminist, of course)

as for the argument that feminism is meant to be about equality, that's true and all, but by my interpretation, feminism is only one piece of the equality puzzle, and is tailor-designed for women--the other side of the equation is called masculinism, which i also identify with--though not as actively, because institutionally, men tend to sit at the top already

feminism and masculinism are ideologically inseparable--you can't have one without the other, or you get bigotry

but when two function in concatenation with each other, you get the loftier ideal of gender egalitarianism

Verbatim · May 22, 2016, 10:09:21 PM

Quote from: Rectum Custodian on May 22, 2016, 10:04:33 PM

I don't think that merely being the opposite gender should negatively influence someone's credibility or mean that people should dismiss them.

i'm not saying i dismiss them, i'm saying i take them less seriously, and the degree to which i take them less seriously can vary

also, do you always type two spaces after punctuation? because i'm just catching onto it, and it's really bothering me

as for facts and logic being genderless, i don't think it's a stretch to say that a man's capacity to grasp such logic may be tied to somewhat to his androcentric perspective as a male-gendered individual

in other words, a cisgendered man can never know what it's like to be a woman, and a cisgendered woman can never know what it's like to be a man--does this not implicate their respective perceptions of issues regarding the opposite gender in some way?

Mordo · May 22, 2016, 10:22:03 PM

Or we could just drop the buzzwords and treat everyone equally I guess.

Verbatim · May 22, 2016, 10:26:48 PM

Quote from: Mordo on May 22, 2016, 10:22:03 PM

Or we could just drop the buzzwords and treat everyone equally I guess.

*kumbaya intensifies*

Turkey · May 22, 2016, 10:44:52 PM

Sure, but there's also a tendency for self-serving bias from the same group, and that's not specific to gender issues. Look at something like the wage gap: a notion that has largely been debunked, but is still highly contested because some people feel that it exists.

But in general, people with experience tend to have better-informed opinions and are more trustworthy in those areas.

Word Wizard · May 22, 2016, 10:47:47 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 22, 2016, 10:09:21 PM

Quote from: Rectum Custodian on May 22, 2016, 10:04:33 PM
I don't think that merely being the opposite gender should negatively influence someone's credibility or mean that people should dismiss them.
i'm not saying i dismiss them, i'm saying i take them less seriously, and the degree to which i take them less seriously can vary

I was good up until I tacked that part on. I would still say no one should be lose credibility for their skin color, gender, etc.

It seems bigoted and divisive. I mean, I might reluctantly set my expections low for someone based off certain stereotypes - but I don't think it should be expected or accepted. Once I hear their argument, then I adjust how serious I take them.

As an example, something brought up religion at work and the authority of the bible and how one could determine what rules to follow. My two coworkers were religious.

One was a fence sitter, essentially saying "I don't know man, it's interesting".

The other said that God personally speaks to them and tells them which parts of the bible "are true"

Lets just say I adjusted my expectations accordingly.

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also, do you always type two spaces after punctuation? because i'm just catching onto it, and it's really bothering me

Yeah, that's how I was taught to type formally and I just keep it out of habit.

Turkey · May 22, 2016, 10:51:24 PM

Quote from: Rectum Custodian on May 22, 2016, 10:47:47 PM

I would still say no one should be lose credibility for their skin color, gender, etc.

Would you say a math student is a more reliable source of information about math than an arts student? Then wouldn't a woman generally (and not exclusively) be somewhat more reliable when talking about women's issues?

To be honest I'm not even if that comparison works all that well, but you get what I mean.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · May 22, 2016, 11:09:42 PM

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Verbatim · May 22, 2016, 11:17:44 PM

Quote from: HERE COME DAT BOI on May 22, 2016, 11:09:42 PM

The opinions of the unwashed and unlearned do not matter at all.

I think it is reasonable to be critical of ANY opinion not coming from a well-read person.

Most women are fucking dumb, for example, so it isn't wise to take their opinions seriously at all, just like it is unwise to take the opinions of men seriously. They are equal in their ignorance.

this is the highest concentration of fedora-tier /pol/ack cuckbait i've seen in minutes

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · May 23, 2016, 12:17:52 AM

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SecondClass · May 23, 2016, 12:24:00 AM

Doesn't matter in the slightest. If you have principles, they often apply to things outside your sex.

Flee · May 23, 2016, 02:51:32 AM

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Flee · May 23, 2016, 03:20:37 AM

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Ender · May 23, 2016, 06:02:54 AM

Word Wizard · May 23, 2016, 07:17:19 AM

Quote from: Hold the Turkey on May 22, 2016, 10:51:24 PM

Quote from: Rectum Custodian on May 22, 2016, 10:47:47 PM
I would still say no one should be lose credibility for their skin color, gender, etc.

Would you say a math student is a more reliable source of information about math than an arts student? Then wouldn't a woman generally (and not exclusively) be somewhat more reliable when talking about women's issues?

There's an intuitive feeling to say yes, but I would need more than a generic title. For all I know, this is a first year math student who is failing; against an arts student who took equal or higher level math as part of their degree or for supplemental study and did well. Then there is the chance that if they did have good grades, they cheated or on had an easier class.

If one were to ask, who is more knowledgeableble between 2 people of the same group, what would we need to do to find out who is more credible? I say it's to hear them out.

To really gauge their ability, there would have to be some metric to compare them by, otherwise - how would we know for sure? A test in this case would be analogous to hearing out someone's argument.

So back to your question, I would say that people have stereotypes that are sometimes accurate/justified.

My position though is that when arguing things like philosophy or politics, someone's birth given traits hold no weight to their argument, and that we end up needing to assess their arguments anyways, so we might as well hold back our opinion until after they fail to make a sound argument.

Word Wizard · May 23, 2016, 07:21:56 AM

With feminism for example, there is more to their position than "I'm a women, therefore I know more".

Women weren't given the right to abortions simply for being women. It was because men and women agreed with the argument that everyone deserves bodily autonomy and that abortion is a method to fulfill that.

Tyger · May 23, 2016, 10:19:28 AM

Isn't it inherently sexist to disregard or think less of somebodies opinion because of their gender?