Arguments against Suicide

Sandtrap · November 20, 2015, 01:11:19 PM

Just some interesting question to ponder on some common statement often brought up when arguing against suicide.

The first and foremost being, that it's a self centered choice, so to speak, in that when somebody commits suicide they often leave behind hurt people. I use "hurt" loosely. Destroyed would be a better term.

Which is a fair point. But consider this. If you were to die suddenly, regardless of your choosing, you would still leave people behind. You would still leave people behind, hurting. And, one way or another, they would have to adapt to your absense. Which means that the only difference in the two outcomes of death, is the type of pain inflicted on those you leave behind.

Which brings up an interesting question. People argue against suicide, usually bringing up points about how the person in question could have been helped to change that view into something better and more positive.

But if either way, we arrive at the same conclusion no matter what we pick, even if we don't choose to die, then what exactly is the point of stopping somebody from committing suicide?

Mr. Psychologist · November 20, 2015, 01:31:44 PM

The strongest and simplest argument for some cases is that the desire to die/commit suicide stems from a faulty mindset or delusional state brought about by mental illness. This is very often treatable and is a temporary problem, which if left unchecked can result in it being a permanent one.

There are of course logical arguments for suicide, which tend towards euthanasia in my opinion more than just allowing people to leap from skyscrapers at will.

A terminal illness with nothing but pain and suffering before you die? Dying painlessly in your sleep would be the logical and humane choice.

Then you have those who are escaping social shame, this one is trickier to be as concrete on because at the same time as saying that the problem they have will pass, a life as a pariah isn't much of a life at all. I would still advocate the person in question is helped to accept their situation and go about changing it (if possible) rather than simply taking the easy route out. (That's the kind of scenario in which the phrase is appropriate imo, it's not 'the easy way out' of depression, but refusing to face up to embarrassment and ending your life over it is to be blunt)

The type of pain inflicted of course is greater on those left behind, if someone were to be hit and killed by a bus tomorrow that would of course have an impact on their family, but if that person hung themselves in their bedroom for their parents to find? Not only does that leave the initial trauma of finding your child swinging from the rafters, but the added guilt of not knowing/preventing/possibly causing it can break people and it does.

I think it's probably the 'preventable' tag that tends to go with it that causes the most suffering, when someone dies of an incurable illness it is generally easier to accept. There is nothing you could have done, you don't sit up at night thinking 'what if I cured X disease?' because you couldn't have done.

But the thought that someone might still be alive if you'd answered the phone at 3am? Or that blowing them off last week led to it? Or that your child never spoke to you about their problems? Or you didn't listen?

That sort of shit destroys people, plain and simple.

Turkey · November 20, 2015, 01:53:37 PM

I don't see the argument that suicide hurts those around you to be valid. I think you should condemn suicide for the same reason you would condemn cutting, binge eating, bulimia, or addiction -- that is, because it comes from an illness.

November 20, 2015, 02:04:35 PM

Condemn suicide all you want - it's a preventable and destructive thing, of course - but no entity has the moral power to outlaw it.

challengerX · November 20, 2015, 02:08:52 PM

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RubMyBelly69 · November 20, 2015, 03:05:20 PM

Against, aye. You see, it gets tricky. It's my opinion that no one should be forced to live their life. Before I say anything else, I think everyone has the responsibility to do everything in their power to solve their problem/situation (i.e. professional counseling, psychiatry). Suicide should never be a rash decision, if a person is to consider suicide, it should be something meticulously weighed with all other options(hopefully productive) with available help and support over a lengthy period of time. Ultimately, with enough thought a person will realize it should only be a last resort option.

No one who's ever committed suicide should ever be judged or shamed, because we can't ever completely put ourselves in some else's shoes. Even if they know their suicide would scar their friends and family forever, no one should be guilt tripped into living their life. Sometimes, sometimes the circumstances really are insufferable.

tl;dr getting all the help you can first is the best way to go

Super Irish · November 20, 2015, 03:11:50 PM

Living's nicer?

Seriously, life can suck but has good as well as bad, with proportionally more good if you know what you're doing. Hell, you don't even have to know what you're doing and life can be fine.

It's also finite. Death, whether or not you subscribe to the belief that there is an afterlife, is eternal. Eternal nothingness because you physically don't exist anymore is a pretty shitty end, and eternal paradise, isn't, because that's not possible. It's like eating your favourite food every day, watching your favourite movie every day, listening to your favourite song every day, forever. (I don't think I need to go into details with Hell here...).

Making the most of the relatively already short time you have existing on this plane is worth it even if you believe your life is shit.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · November 20, 2015, 05:30:48 PM

None.

eggsalad · November 20, 2015, 06:20:19 PM

I think that "permanent solution to temporary problem" adage is asinine.
First off, if the "problem" is a dissatisfaction with things inherent to life, then all you're doing is trivializing the person's perceived problems.
Second, the "collateral" doesn't necessarily matter to them. They likely already have assessed the value of life and have concluded it is negative. Why should someone take the possibility of improvement as reason to refrain if there is no felt consequence to suicide. They aren't going to regret any missed opportunity, they can't.

Suicide is a solution that solves all problems and any possibility of any new problems emerging.

Sandtrap · November 20, 2015, 07:07:09 PM

Quote from: RadioactiveTurkey on November 20, 2015, 01:53:37 PM

I don't see the argument that suicide hurts those around you to be valid. I think you should condemn suicide for the same reason you would condemn cutting, binge eating, bulimia, or addiction -- that is, because it comes from an illness.

Condemn seems like a harsh word for that. You don't condemn people for any of the things you listed.

BaconShelf · November 20, 2015, 07:14:27 PM

The only argument I have against it is that giving some unlucky driver a nightmare experience is pretty shitty.

Otherwise, I have no argument against it. If someone does not want to be alive anymore, no one else has the right to tell them they have to be.

Sandtrap · November 20, 2015, 07:17:31 PM

Quote from: challengerX on November 20, 2015, 02:08:52 PM

Muslims do it, so.

LOL But honestly, it doesn't solve anything. Everything just ceases to exist, that's not a solution. There's always an out.

But I can understand some people that go through with it.

Well, not really, actually. About the solution part.

I want ya to imagine a big long stretch of bear traps. Just bear with me for a moment and assume that this is your existence and all you know.

At the start of the course you're handed a gun, and told, with that gun, you can kill yourself. But, you are also told what waits ahead of you, and at the end of the course.

Along the course filled with bear traps, which you will fall in without any doubt whatsoever, there's medication. Let's say painkillers and really high powered psychedlic drugs. These drugs are placed in spots along the course. They're essentially happy moments that allow you to escape the reality and pain of the bear traps. But they're not placed close enough to each other so that you don't suffer a painless run.

And at the end of the course? You die. You get to the end, you die of fatigue or whatever.

This is essentially life in a nutshell. Ups, and downs. And depending on your luck of the draw, and other conditions, you might have more ups, or more downs. So would it logically, therefore make sense to just save yourself the trouble of going through the entire course to reach the same end result anyway, as if you just shot yourself at the start of it?

Sandtrap · November 20, 2015, 07:19:30 PM

Quote from: Bacon on November 20, 2015, 07:14:27 PM

The only argument I have against it is that giving some unlucky driver a nightmare experience is pretty shitty.

Otherwise, I have no argument against it. If someone does not want to be alive anymore, no one else has the right to tell them they have to be.

Well, that's where things get sketchy, a bit. Right or no, people will act for those they care for. And certainly, tell them to stick around. I agree about messy suicides though.

BaconShelf · November 20, 2015, 07:23:02 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on November 20, 2015, 07:19:30 PM

Quote from: Bacon on November 20, 2015, 07:14:27 PM
The only argument I have against it is that giving some unlucky driver a nightmare experience is pretty shitty.

Otherwise, I have no argument against it. If someone does not want to be alive anymore, no one else has the right to tell them they have to be.

Well, that's where things get sketchy, a bit. Right or no, people will act for those they care for. And certainly, tell them to stick around. I agree about messy suicides though.

I'm more going into how suicide/ attempted/ assisted suicide is illegal and more the 'suicide is for cowards' mentality some people have. Or the mentality that someone who does commit suicide should be demonised for not wanting to live a shitty existence just so their family/ friends don't get a bit sad.

Sandtrap · November 20, 2015, 07:33:35 PM

Quote from: SuperIrish on November 20, 2015, 03:11:50 PM

Living's nicer?

Seriously, life can suck but has good as well as bad, with proportionally more good if you know what you're doing. Hell, you don't even have to know what you're doing and life can be fine.

It's also finite. Death, whether or not you subscribe to the belief that there is an afterlife, is eternal. Eternal nothingness because you physically don't exist anymore is a pretty shitty end, and eternal paradise, isn't, because that's not possible. It's like eating your favourite food every day, watching your favourite movie every day, listening to your favourite song every day, forever. (I don't think I need to go into details with Hell here...).

Making the most of the relatively already short time you have existing on this plane is worth it even if you believe your life is shit.

You face an end, no matter what you do. And in all likelyhood most people are either going to live lives of medicority or shit, with a small percentage of them being truly content by the time their respective end shows up.

Doesn't it seem....I dunno, like a waste of time? Almost like pointless meandering about while you wait for an outcome you can't avoid? Think about it. Enjoying your time while you have it being worth it?

How so? Eternal nothing is just that. You're not gonna wallow in some dark room for eternity beating yourself up over how you didn't "enjoy your time." So why beat around the bush, essentially? At the end of the day, your enjoyed time doesn't amount to much if you won't even know you ever had it in the first place.

Sandtrap · November 20, 2015, 07:37:19 PM

Quote from: Bacon on November 20, 2015, 07:23:02 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on November 20, 2015, 07:19:30 PM
Quote from: Bacon on November 20, 2015, 07:14:27 PM
The only argument I have against it is that giving some unlucky driver a nightmare experience is pretty shitty.

Otherwise, I have no argument against it. If someone does not want to be alive anymore, no one else has the right to tell them they have to be.

Well, that's where things get sketchy, a bit. Right or no, people will act for those they care for. And certainly, tell them to stick around. I agree about messy suicides though.

I'm more going into how suicide/ attempted/ assisted suicide is illegal and more the 'suicide is for cowards' mentality some people have. Or the mentality that someone who does commit suicide should be demonised for not wanting to live a shitty existence just so their family/ friends don't get a bit sad.

Can I just say how funny it is that suicide is illegal?

What the fuck are you gonna do? Charge the family of some hanged guy a fine? Throw the depressed attemptee into the slammer?

Super Irish · November 20, 2015, 07:41:06 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on November 20, 2015, 07:33:35 PM

Quote from: SuperIrish on November 20, 2015, 03:11:50 PM
Living's nicer?

Seriously, life can suck but has good as well as bad, with proportionally more good if you know what you're doing. Hell, you don't even have to know what you're doing and life can be fine.

It's also finite. Death, whether or not you subscribe to the belief that there is an afterlife, is eternal. Eternal nothingness because you physically don't exist anymore is a pretty shitty end, and eternal paradise, isn't, because that's not possible. It's like eating your favourite food every day, watching your favourite movie every day, listening to your favourite song every day, forever. (I don't think I need to go into details with Hell here...).

Making the most of the relatively already short time you have existing on this plane is worth it even if you believe your life is shit.

You face an end, no matter what you do. And in all likelyhood most people are either going to live lives of medicority or shit, with a small percentage of them being truly content by the time their respective end shows up.

Doesn't it seem....I dunno, like a waste of time? Almost like pointless meandering about while you wait for an outcome you can't avoid? Think about it. Enjoying your time while you have it being worth it?

How so? Eternal nothing is just that. You're not gonna wallow in some dark room for eternity beating yourself up over how you didn't "enjoy your time." So why beat around the bush, essentially? At the end of the day, your enjoyed time doesn't amount to much if you won't even know you ever had it in the first place.

I'd rather know I enjoyed my experience on my deathbed than be suddenly regretting what I wasted in the end if I decided "fuck it all".

We'd be a short lived species if we all thought "What's the point?" and just gave up living then and there.

Sandtrap · November 20, 2015, 07:49:04 PM

Quote from: SuperIrish on November 20, 2015, 07:41:06 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on November 20, 2015, 07:33:35 PM
Quote from: SuperIrish on November 20, 2015, 03:11:50 PM
Living's nicer?

Seriously, life can suck but has good as well as bad, with proportionally more good if you know what you're doing. Hell, you don't even have to know what you're doing and life can be fine.

It's also finite. Death, whether or not you subscribe to the belief that there is an afterlife, is eternal. Eternal nothingness because you physically don't exist anymore is a pretty shitty end, and eternal paradise, isn't, because that's not possible. It's like eating your favourite food every day, watching your favourite movie every day, listening to your favourite song every day, forever. (I don't think I need to go into details with Hell here...).

Making the most of the relatively already short time you have existing on this plane is worth it even if you believe your life is shit.

You face an end, no matter what you do. And in all likelyhood most people are either going to live lives of medicority or shit, with a small percentage of them being truly content by the time their respective end shows up.

Doesn't it seem....I dunno, like a waste of time? Almost like pointless meandering about while you wait for an outcome you can't avoid? Think about it. Enjoying your time while you have it being worth it?

How so? Eternal nothing is just that. You're not gonna wallow in some dark room for eternity beating yourself up over how you didn't "enjoy your time." So why beat around the bush, essentially? At the end of the day, your enjoyed time doesn't amount to much if you won't even know you ever had it in the first place.

I'd rather know I enjoyed my experience on my deathbed than be suddenly regretting what I wasted in the end if I decided "fuck it all".

We'd be a short lived species if we all thought "What's the point?" and just gave up living then and there.

Short lived species or no has nothing to do with anything.

3 billion years or so our sun's going to either expand and absorb just about everything in the solar system, or just explode. Running to any other world only stalls this effect. Meanwhile, the universe lines up to starve itself to death as everything drifts farther apart and atomic bonds wear down. The success of a species means little to the argument here.

And, I suppose it's a fair point you have on the first sentiment. Although it comes down to personal preference at this point. Personal preference is where things get sketchy.

With some people, if you ask them, "Would you do it all over again?" Some say yes. Some say no.

Super Irish · November 20, 2015, 07:59:00 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on November 20, 2015, 07:49:04 PM

Quote from: SuperIrish on November 20, 2015, 07:41:06 PM
Quote from: Sandtrap on November 20, 2015, 07:33:35 PM
Quote from: SuperIrish on November 20, 2015, 03:11:50 PM
Living's nicer?

Seriously, life can suck but has good as well as bad, with proportionally more good if you know what you're doing. Hell, you don't even have to know what you're doing and life can be fine.

It's also finite. Death, whether or not you subscribe to the belief that there is an afterlife, is eternal. Eternal nothingness because you physically don't exist anymore is a pretty shitty end, and eternal paradise, isn't, because that's not possible. It's like eating your favourite food every day, watching your favourite movie every day, listening to your favourite song every day, forever. (I don't think I need to go into details with Hell here...).

Making the most of the relatively already short time you have existing on this plane is worth it even if you believe your life is shit.

You face an end, no matter what you do. And in all likelyhood most people are either going to live lives of medicority or shit, with a small percentage of them being truly content by the time their respective end shows up.

Doesn't it seem....I dunno, like a waste of time? Almost like pointless meandering about while you wait for an outcome you can't avoid? Think about it. Enjoying your time while you have it being worth it?

How so? Eternal nothing is just that. You're not gonna wallow in some dark room for eternity beating yourself up over how you didn't "enjoy your time." So why beat around the bush, essentially? At the end of the day, your enjoyed time doesn't amount to much if you won't even know you ever had it in the first place.

I'd rather know I enjoyed my experience on my deathbed than be suddenly regretting what I wasted in the end if I decided "fuck it all".

We'd be a short lived species if we all thought "What's the point?" and just gave up living then and there.

Short lived species or no has nothing to do with anything.

Oh it makes ALL the difference. When you realise that your life is relatively insignificant in the scale of the history of the Earth alone, never mind the rest of the Universe, it makes it all the more valuable to me.

I agree though, personal preference is why we're having this discussion in the first place. If at the end of my life, somehow I was able to re-live it, even as a different person with no memory of the last me, I'd take it.

Then again, maybe I'm biased. Being alive is all I know, but at least I'm certain about what being alive is like, and it's not all bad. Collectively all living things* fear the unknown, and death is a fucking massive one.

*(with a decent brain, that is.)

Turkey · November 20, 2015, 09:08:02 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on November 20, 2015, 07:07:09 PM

Quote from: RadioactiveTurkey on November 20, 2015, 01:53:37 PM
I don't see the argument that suicide hurts those around you to be valid. I think you should condemn suicide for the same reason you would condemn cutting, binge eating, bulimia, or addiction -- that is, because it comes from an illness.

Condemn seems like a harsh word for that. You don't condemn people for any of the things you listed.

You don't condemn addiction, bulimia, or self harm? I recommend you double check the definition if you think it's harsh.

Sandtrap · November 20, 2015, 09:23:31 PM

Quote from: RadioactiveTurkey on November 20, 2015, 09:08:02 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on November 20, 2015, 07:07:09 PM
Quote from: RadioactiveTurkey on November 20, 2015, 01:53:37 PM
I don't see the argument that suicide hurts those around you to be valid. I think you should condemn suicide for the same reason you would condemn cutting, binge eating, bulimia, or addiction -- that is, because it comes from an illness.

Condemn seems like a harsh word for that. You don't condemn people for any of the things you listed.

You don't condemn addiction, bulimia, or self harm? I recommend you double check the definition if you think it's harsh.

No, I don't condemn. I don't think it should be chastiized. You don't chastize somebody who's addicted, or bulimic, or self harming.

You help them. You don't shame the idea or concept of it like some stone age neanderthal. Because people fall into it fairly often, not by choice. Being surrounded by people who are too keen to condemn it, but do fuck all to help it, aren't exactly the best motivators.

Turkey · November 20, 2015, 09:32:54 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on November 20, 2015, 09:23:31 PM

Quote from: RadioactiveTurkey on November 20, 2015, 09:08:02 PM
Quote from: Sandtrap on November 20, 2015, 07:07:09 PM
Quote from: RadioactiveTurkey on November 20, 2015, 01:53:37 PM
I don't see the argument that suicide hurts those around you to be valid. I think you should condemn suicide for the same reason you would condemn cutting, binge eating, bulimia, or addiction -- that is, because it comes from an illness.

Condemn seems like a harsh word for that. You don't condemn people for any of the things you listed.

You don't condemn addiction, bulimia, or self harm? I recommend you double check the definition if you think it's harsh.

No, I don't condemn. I don't think it should be chastiized. You don't chastize somebody who's addicted, or bulimic, or self harming.

You help them. You don't shame the idea or concept of it like some stone age neanderthal. Because people fall into it fairly often, not by choice. Being surrounded by people who are too keen to condemn it, but do fuck all to help it, aren't exactly the best motivators.

Condemn doesn't mean to chastise, it means to disapprove. If you disapprove of suicide, you condemn it.

BaconShelf · November 21, 2015, 05:53:53 AM

Edit: -nvm accidental post-

Genghis Khan · November 21, 2015, 06:11:34 AM

I don't think you can stop someone who is determined to commit suicide.