i haven't been a fan of the amazing atheist for years now, but the video he just uploaded on this subject covers how i feel to a T and more or less answers all of your questions:

I'll only bring up the first three minutes or so because there's quite a bit in that video worth discussing and I'd rather not bite off more than I want to chew (even though I could), and just say that I completely agree with him on not only Floyd's death but also the looting/rioting between mom & pop stores and big business stores. However the one thing I keep seeing constantly for years now is the comparison between a CEOs salary and an hourly employee's wage and I really wish this comparison would just stop. There's a lot more involved than just those two numbers, not to mention the eight or so ranks between these two individuals and their salaries/job descriptions and none of the other details are ever brought up even though it would show a more complete picture on how a "big business" is run because it mostly certainly runs significantly different than a small business.

YouTube

I'll only bring up the first three minutes or so because there's quite a bit in that video worth discussing and I'd rather not bite off more than I want to chew (even though I could), and just say that I completely agree with him on not only Floyd's death but also the looting/rioting between mom & pop stores and big business stores. However the one thing I keep seeing constantly for years now is the comparison between a CEOs salary and an hourly employee's wage and I really wish this comparison would just stop. There's a lot more involved than just those two numbers, not to mention the eight or so ranks between these two individuals and their salaries/job descriptions and none of the other details are ever brought up even though it would show a more complete picture on how a "big business" is run because it mostly certainly runs significantly different than a small business.

Quote from: Verbatim on May 29, 2020, 04:43:54 PM

YouTube

One of these days you'll grow up.

How's leather taste wagie?

and just say that I completely agree with him on not only Floyd's death but also the looting/rioting between mom & pop stores and big business stores.

I wouldn't know but I imagine it tastes about the same as the milk being squeezed out of the public teat that you so vehemently defend.

Tell me what is inherently wrong with a CEO making millions of dollars without using Reddit-tier soijack memes. Bonus points if you're able to bring up other positions on the corporate ladder instead of just the basic entry-level ones and their salaries as well.

>as he defends a multi millionaire CEO's salary

Y-yes massa mouse, the big bad rioters are the real problem. Please let me go back to being a 12 dollar an hour wage slave massa. I'll be a good boi massa, I'll generate your profits for you. Massa treats me good mmhmm.

Define both "grotesquely excessive" and "just scraping by". Specifically however I want to know what you mean by "just scraping by"; what counts as making too little for you?

Tell me why CEOs deserve such grotesquely excessive salaries while their workers scrape by an existence and then I'll answer your question.

Define both "grotesquely excessive" and "just scraping by". Specifically however I want to know what you mean by "just scraping by"; what counts as making too little for you?

Quote from: Mordo on May 29, 2020, 07:11:05 PM

Tell me why CEOs deserve such grotesquely excessive salaries while their workers scrape by an existence and then I'll answer your question.

Is lil wagie still talking? Don't worry, I'm sure the mouse will allow you those extra dollars for overtime. Massa mouse treats us goods. Wese a good slave for massa.

What the fuck is your problem dude? Jesus Christ you're unbelievable.

Quote from: Mordo on May 29, 2020, 08:24:13 PM

Is lil wagie still talking? Don't worry, I'm sure the mouse will allow you those extra dollars for overtime. Massa mouse treats us goods. Wese a good slave for massa.

OH MY LAWWWD LAWD LAWD

WESE SORRY MASSA. DON'T DEDUCT ARE WAGES MASSA WE NEEDS IT TO SURVIVE

I agree with Mordo that CEOs don't deserve in any way to be bathing in cash while the people actually responsible for keeping companies afloat can barely survive off of their wages, but Jesus dude, you're not helping your point in the least bit. You sound like the degenerates in my ghetto middle and high schools who are all now in the ground or replicating SecondClass' existance.

I'd rather sound like second class than some  subservient bootlicker who thinks CEOS somehow deserve the palacial salary they get for scratching their arse.

Get some fucking perspective.

the riots are good

Tell me what is inherently wrong with a CEO making millions of dollars without using Reddit-tier soijack memes. Bonus points if you're able to bring up other positions on the corporate ladder instead of just the basic entry-level ones and their salaries as well.

Quote from: Mordo on May 29, 2020, 06:44:48 PM

>as he defends a multi millionaire CEO's salary

Y-yes massa mouse, the big bad rioters are the real problem. Please let me go back to being a 12 dollar an hour wage slave massa. I'll be a good boi massa, I'll generate your profits for you. Massa treats me good mmhmm.

I'd say that there's nothing wrong with making x amount of money that the ceo's make. Where things go wrong however is that regular average joes aren't allowed to achieve this status due to the nature of the roadblocks placed in their way by institutions in the government and corporate behemoths. There's too many drainage points for an average joe to contend with on their income levels, whereas the board becomes stacked in the favor of upper end ceo's who can generate so much income that they can never lose. They get tax breaks, insurance, and legal loopholes that average normies don't get.

And then we run into the issue of what x amount of money accomplishes in our society. Buyouts. Having some potential  troubles come your way that might put a dent in your business or actually establish some form of moral obligation? Simply invest your unlimited income in the right direction and you can buy out government officials and organizations.

Once again, I say that it's not the level of income that matters, it's the disparity between top and bottom, and more importantly, how this money is invested. Most of the money generated is only going to be invested into what will generate more monetary gain for these corporations. Instead of actually using their wealth to accomplish anything of note in our world, perhaps helping to make it a better place and fix large issues that we're faced with, they squander it on generating a bigger fictitious number we all somehow apparently agreed to abide by and borderline worship as our mythological god. This becomes a massive problem when they own the board game that is the economy. It holds us back as a species and wastes everybody's precious time.

How are they not allowed to achieve such status? Nepotism? Being born into a wealthy family and able to start up businesses easier? I wont deny that it's a significant bonus to have either of those things (or both), but at the end of the day, shareholders only want one thing out of their CEO and that's someone who can make growth and there's enough positions/ranks within the ladder for one to go through to learn the ins & outs of the company so that they can produce the same results. All of those positions offer higher pay and the ability to raise your standard of living.

And those positions and pay raises can give you more than just going from a mediocre apartment to a somewhat-nice house, and from going from a sandwich with a juice box for lunch to dine-in restaurant. You can go back to school and earn a degree, invest in stocks to produce some of your own wealth, maybe start a low-risk tiny business just to make a tiny bit more on the side. All of that largely depends on how you spend your money. I'm not blaming any outside factor because I chose to spend my discretionary income on entertainment I felt I deserved instead of going back to college or opening up an investment account, but I also have a savings account I would dump money into every week because I feel being fiscally responsible is a large part of getting ahead in life. I can proudly say I've never went negative in my main checking account and it hasn't been under $1k in over a year (and even with this pandemic crippling my income it still wont dip below $1.5k).

With that being said, if CEOs made shit for a living, what reason is there to even aim for that position? I don't resent my boss's boss's boss's boss because he makes six figures, especially considering he started out hourly like I did. People like to say the dream of working hard and succeeding in life because of it is just a meme and they'll drown out any evidence of someone doing so; Here's one of the people from my company doing it. Honestly, the pay is probably the only incentive to ever become a CEO anyways. Their daily grind isn't glamorous in the slightest. Who wants to work 60-70 hours a week (including weekends) on six hours of sleep with constant pressure from shareholders to make growth and all you get is mediocre pay? Nobody would volunteer for the job, let alone strive for it; and shareholders will have you removed if you just ride the wave and not produce higher results.

I'm not arguing that hourly entry-level workers shouldn't be paid a living wage, they most certainly should. But when you have a corporate business with thousands of people, slashing the millionaire's pay just to give more to all the entry-workers amounts to what? An extra $100 every year for each employee while they all see that their higher ups actually lose pay for doing a pain in the ass job? When that guy quits because the stress/workload amounts to less pay, who's going to want to replace him? No one thinks that the entry-level positions don't deserve to live comfortably, but the idea that a CEO just sits on their asses all day and makes crazy money for no reason is just objectively untrue.*

*Edit: The last sentence somehow got into the middle of your post, so I moved it to where it should have been.

I'd say that there's nothing wrong with making x amount of money that the ceo's make. Where things go wrong however is that regular average joes aren't allowed to achieve this status due to the nature of the roadblocks placed in their way by institutions in the government and corporate behemoths. There's too many drainage points for an average joe to contend with on their income levels, whereas the board becomes stacked in the favor of upper end ceo's who can generate so much income that they can never lose. They get tax breaks, insurance, and legal loopholes that average normies don't get.

And then we run into the issue of what x amount of money accomplishes in our society. Buyouts. Having some potential  troubles come your way that might put a dent in your business or actually establish some form of moral obligation? Simply invest your unlimited income in the right direction and you can buy out government officials and organizations.

Once again, I say that it's not the level of income that matters, it's the disparity between top and bottom, and more importantly, how this money is invested. Most of the money generated is only going to be invested into what will generate more monetary gain for these corporations. Instead of actually using their wealth to accomplish anything of note in our world, perhaps helping to make it a better place and fix large issues that we're faced with, they squander it on generating a bigger fictitious number we all somehow apparently agreed to abide by and borderline worship as our mythological god. This becomes a massive problem when they own the board game that is the economy. It holds us back as a species and wastes everybody's precious time.

How are they not allowed to achieve such status?

They technically aren't. But they are slowed almost to the point that it's not possible, as I explained, the barriers that exist for a poor person compared to an extravagently wealthy one are different and designed for to generate failure for one side of the coin.

And those positions and pay raises can give you more than just going from a mediocre apartment to a somewhat-nice house

This examples is moot because housing should be considered an essential access point for all human beings. And if it's classified as essential, it shouldn't be bottom of the barrel shit. You shouldn't have to run hoops to land "average" housing at best.

You can go back to school and earn a degree

Money should not be a relevant factor in what education you should be able to access. Your ability to access education should be based off your actual ability to learn in your field. This is a moot point for having wealth.

what reason is there to even aim for that position?

Exactly. Do you see the point of failure in this scenario? If the only incentive for a CEO or for somebody, anybody, to do something because they acquire wealth of income is wealth of income alone, then it's an entirely pointless existence and exercise. Society as it exists today is not founded on what we as human beings desire or need to grow, but instead a lure that we hope grants us access to certain doorways to a better life, as well as a fundament to daily survival. This is an incorrect mode of operation.

The only actual reason to do anything, especially a job, should be for the sake of a job or task itself, and achieving the highest quality that you are able to. Requiring a crutch to bait you along into doing work you don't really want to do, for the sake of earning something that's made neccessary for survival is a morally shit move and it's totally redundant. Imagine for a second if I operated on your point of logic.

Why should I bother getting up in the morning and going to do my job if the pay's not good enough when my body is falling apart? Why should I bother having compassion for human beings around me if I'm not getting paid for it? Why should I do anything at all if I don't get paid for it? Much of existence can be a pain in the ass, so why am I not being paid for it?

working hard and succeeding in life because of it is just a meme

Nowhere did I say that working hard is a meme. Fucking believe me dude I know what working hard is. I spent five years on the streets and homeless and now I'm working double jobs and clocking in at 112 hour work weeks. My house is currently a truck with a truck camper. The amount of effort it's taken to pull myself back from what I came from is very real. I put the time in, and now I'm here. However, a person can work hard and still achieve nothing if they're working in a system that's designed to be counter-intuitive. Our system is designed to be counter intuitive.

These quoted success stories only exist because these people were willing to sacrifice tremendously to get to their level. And this ultimately is the problem. People shouldn't have to sacrifice their timespan, their lifespan, in a grind to achieve even moderate levels of comfort. As a human being, it should be one's responsibility to make the journey for all other lives around yours easier, not difficult. Society at large does not do this in spades.

But when you have a corporate business with thousands of people, slashing the millionaire's pay

I never said slashing his pay was required. There are many other measures that can and should be taken other than slashing pay. The measures I'm talking about are a total restructuring of how our system operates. A total change in values, morals and what really counts in life.

Forgive me if the quotations end up messy, I don't normally reply below quotes.

They technically aren't. But they are slowed almost to the point that it's not possible, as I explained, the barriers that exist for a poor person compared to an extravagantly wealthy one are different and designed for to generate failure for one side of the coin.

I wont say there aren't barriers for entry because there certainly is. One day I'd like to try for a public office but income is certainly a big gate in my way, but I also feel that it isn't the impossible hurdle other people (not necessarily you) make it out to be.

This examples is moot because housing should be considered an essential access point for all human beings. And if it's classified as essential, it shouldn't be bottom of the barrel shit. You shouldn't have to run hoops to land "average" housing at best.

Yes I believe housing is a necessity, I guess my wording is poor. If one has the income to afford better housing I see no reason why they shouldn't go for it.

Money should not be a relevant factor in what education you should be able to access. Your ability to access education should be based off your actual ability to learn in your field. This is a moot point for having wealth.

True, education should be free to obtain, especially if you're producing good grades. Scholarships & grants help tremendously with this. What I mean though is that the money you invest in your own education can be multiplied later down the road; it doesn't even have to be college/technical school either. I mentioned in another thread how I wanted to take clarinet lessons, if I did that and wound up making money from playing the clarinet, it's the same result albeit probably on a lower scale.

Exactly. Do you see the point of failure in this scenario? If the only incentive for a CEO or for somebody, anybody, to do something because they acquire wealth of income is wealth of income alone, then it's an entirely pointless existence and exercise. Society as it exists today is not founded on what we as human beings desire or need to grow, but instead a lure that we hope grants us access to certain doorways to a better life, as well as fundamental to daily survival. This is an incorrect mode of operation.

The only actual reason to do anything, especially a job, should be for the sake of a job or task itself, and achieving the highest quality that you are able to. Requiring a crutch to bait you along into doing work you don't really want to do, for the sake of earning something that's made necessary for survival is a morally shit move and it's totally redundant. Imagine for a second if I operated on your point of logic.

Why should I bother getting up in the morning and going to do my job if the pay's not good enough when my body is falling apart? Why should I bother having compassion for human beings around me if I'm not getting paid for it? Why should I do anything at all if I don't get paid for it? Much of existence can be a pain in the ass, so why am I not being paid for it?

When you say what is necessary to grow, do you mean collectively as a species or individually? Regardless at the end of the day, someone's goal in life should be their own endeavor and that it should be what they want that makes them happy. If someone wants to become an astronaut, they're going to need a lot of studying and training on their part, but at the same time, a lot goes into making such a thing possible other than the individuals drive and money is the easiest way to obtain what's necessary for it.

I will agree that money/income is obsessed a little too much, but at the same time it's a convenient tool to help us procure not only goods & services but necessities for survival as well. Such basic necessities (at least in the first world) are also incredibly inexpensive, an average bag of potatoes is $5 and if you don't like a certain brand, then good news there's five other brands you may prefer with a marginally higher/lower price point, all still inexpensive. But securing wealth/money isn't just for you. Most of us want to start a family and maybe raise a kid, children are expensive but more so if you want to give them the things you were unable to have in life. I don't think there's anybody that would argue that it's wrong to want to raise your kids in an environment better than your own; there's probably very few people in the world (if any) that live in a manner that is completely satisfactory and they wouldn't want something better for their children.

As for drive, there's probably more to it than just money but that helps us get what we really want. I want a really really nice house for myself, and to afford several different really expensive hobbies. Well I'm gonna need money for that and getting a job and then moving onto higher positions is the one of the easier ways to getting the money for those things that I really want. For me personally, I also like the challenge that comes along with it and seeing just how far I can go. Six years ago, I didn't even have a license and I was leeching off my mom while I worked part-time, I had no idea I would even make it this far. That really drove me to see how far I can get if I took my ambition and kicked it into overdrive.

Nowhere did I say that working hard is a meme. Fucking believe me dude I know what working hard is. I spent five years on the streets and homeless and now I'm working double jobs and clocking in at 112 hour work weeks. My house is currently a truck with a truck camper. The amount of effort it's taken to pull myself back from what I came from is very real. I put the time in, and now I'm here. However, a person can work hard and still achieve nothing if they're working in a system that's designed to be counter-intuitive. Our system is designed to be counter intuitive.

These quoted success stories only exist because these people were willing to sacrifice tremendously to get to their level. And this ultimately is the problem. People shouldn't have to sacrifice their timespan, their lifespan, in a grind to achieve even moderate levels of comfort. As a human being, it should be one's responsibility to make the journey for all other lives around yours easier, not difficult. Society at large does not do this in spades.

I didn't say it was you specifically, sorry if you thought I meant you said that. But there is a notion with a lot of people that such a line of thinking is just fantasy. And while there should be a bare-minimum that everyone is entitled to when it comes to necessities like food & shelter, there should be work put in if people want more luxurious standards for themselves. Whether it be from necessity or personal greed, I don't think wanting more when it's available is innately wrong, especially if you put in the effort for it.

And I'll also say some of the ones that advocate for things like "The American Dream" and "Pull yourself up by the bootstraps" are the biggest hypocrites on the matter. President Obama is one of the biggest examples of The American Dream and the Republican right couldn't stand seeing it.

I never said slashing his pay was required. There are many other measures that can and should be taken other than slashing pay. The measures I'm talking about are a total restructuring of how our system operates. A total change in values, morals and what really counts in life.

Like I said, it's not you specifically; but not having an executive with such a huge salary is the quickest band-aid solution for opponents of the current system. I'll just say that things are great but it can always be better, and I think there's a lot in our current system that we take for granted or being completely blind to (such as cheap groceries and financial aid for higher education).

And I do agree that there's a lack of morality but there's even less common sense these days and I'd personally put that as a higher priority.