Ever hear of the backfire effect?

No.

Good, cool. I just don't get how you extracted 'badass' from all that.

Being yourself is badass. KYAA!!

Maybe it’s futile, but I think this question seems to play through a wide range of variables of how I feel in general, it’s not just one concept I want to cover here.

The idea that free will exists hurts me to think about on a fundamental level, as a person who lives with a lot of anxiety. The idea that there will always be someone who doesn’t understand the way you behave, seems to be a universal problem for all human beings, it’s the reason why loneliness exists, and among the smartest people on the planet can feel lonely, because there will always be things inside of our mind that other people cannot understand and perhaps an intelligent person can’t even explain.

Ironically I don’t feel that intelligent, but I’ll get to that later. The idea that free will exists seems to suggest that everyone is responsible for their actions. This implies that whenever a person does something, it’s not because there are factors that influenced their behavior, but that their behavior is simply an act of their own will and governed by an independent mind. Leaving out the details of why I don’t think free will exists, this already creates a problem. It means that a person can always fall under scrutiny for their behavior, when in fact the people judging our behavior can’t even understand the way we think, or why we think. Looking at behavior from this perspective creates a scenario where a person can be judged for their actions, based arbitrarily on whether or not their behavior is good or bad.

It occurred to me that good and bad are arbitrary concepts as far back as high school, that I can remember. I realize that most people don’t think about concepts this deeply, I see this in the tendency of people to choose whatever narrative makes them feel most comfortable; I don’t. It makes me deeply uncomfortable to think what I am thinking right now, believe me. I am as far from being sanctimonious for thinking the thoughts that I’m thinking right now as I could possibly imagine. None the less, the concept that there’s good and bad behavior are the opposite, it is a sanctimonious stance to take, regardless of whether or not free will exists. It makes people think that they are superior to another person, when in fact they just don’t understand why another person behaves the way they do.

There’s no relativistic perspective here, some things aren’t more wrong than others. Everyone is inherently neutral, everyone’s actions are inherently equal. To to think the opposite - well, that’s what’s led to the entire form of society that we live in right now. Crime, punishment, guilty, not guilty, the gossip you hear vapid girls and boys walking down the street making about their peers. It all stems from this concept that people can be judged for their actions, it all stems from this hubris lie that human beings can be inherently judged for their actions. I don’t think that people realize this, but this form of thinking, this behavior which creates so much quarrel between fellow human beings, can only be possible if people accept that people are responsible for their own actions, regardless of whether or not they think that free will actually exists.

This is deeply concerning to me, because it means that I will be constantly judged for my actions, by people who don’t understand how the brain works, by people who are petty and lack understanding of my own mind, or even have a good reason to think what they may or may not think of me in the first place. This is a large dark vacuum where all knowledge and understanding is sucked out, and replaced by an empty void of judgment and vague reasoning. It pisses me off so much, that people can make these stupid, vacuous assumptions about other people, yet I don’t have any power over what they think, even if I try my best to explain why they should have empathy and patience and understanding for other people - by explaining to them why I think that free will doesn’t exist.

Free will most likely does not exist, and there’s already a lot of factors that we know play a role in why people behave the way they behave. Some of these factors include (but are not limited to, because the factors are infinite), a person’s upbringing and how this upbringing effects the development of their brain; a person’s environment, which could mean where they live and their economic and social status; the food they eat which effects the brain and the body - which effects the brain which is part of the body; a person’s genes which were passed down from their parents which dictate what behavioral traits a person will have, so much is passed down from parents. Already, we can begin to see that a person is not responsible for a lot of the factors that play into what makes them who they are. Furthermore, we don’t orchestrate what is going on inside of our head, our brains are the ones doing all the work and we just happen to notice the outcome of what goes on inside of our brain, it absorbs information from the world around us and it does all the processing, we just notice our thoughts which gives us the illusion of consciousness.

That’s another thing that baffles me, is how consciousness came to be. I honestly have no idea what consciousness is, and besides Daniel Dennett, apparently, a lot of other people don’t have much of an explanation for what consciousness is besides that it’s an illusion. I am inclined to believe that things are deterministic, (even if on a sub atomic level the universe moves unpredictably, unpredictable movements wouldn’t mean we’re free, it would just mean that our actions are more chaotic, as opposed to if everything ran like a smooth ticking clock, in which our actions are governed by the laws of physics, set forth in motion from the time that time began during the big bang). This would mean that all of our actions have been determined from the beginning of time, and that everything leading up to everything that has ever happened is completely unavoidable; everyone who has ever committed a crime was destined to end up doing it from the start. Or everything’s completely chaotic, and equally nothing is responsible for anything.

That would mean our entire concept of morality is wrong. The only ideas that seem to contradict my own that I have heard are extremely annoying. People tend to have these vague religious ideas which make no sense what so ever. I just wanted to say it here, it is so annoying. People choose to believe what they want to believe about the universe, because - and I shit you not - they have said they don’t like the idea of determinism. I’m sorry, you fucking dumbass, but it doesn’t matter if you think the sun doesn’t revolved around the earth either. There’s empirical evidence that shows that this is true, empirical evidence is the only way of accurately explaining what happens in the universe. And that’s so important, these accurate explanations, because they allow everything that you do which you might otherwise take for granted, like using a computer, people going to space, cars, phones; someone had to have evidence and rational way of thinking to make these things work.

"There was recently a right wing politician named Geert Wilders, who got prosecuted by the courts for hate speech against Muslims, wanting to ban all muslims and the koran, close all masques, and leave the european union if he becomes prime minister."

This is incorrect on so many levels.

Oh, really? Well you're not going to bother defending your point of view so you're dismissed.

...no matter who's speaking.

Not being able to express an opinion and having an opinion be illegal is a pretty dangerous idea. People on the left often want their ideas to be law just as much as people on the right. When the right wing decides to do that, then it becomes a really big issues for marginalized people. If the tables are turned, and the situation didn’t favor the left wing, then we would be the ones hoping for neutrality and freedom of speech. I don’t agree with far right politics at all, yet I still think it’s important to stand up for their rights to freedom of speech, because if the opposite was true then we’ve created a government which can control whatever people say regardless of if it’s right or wrong.

It seems like hate speech laws are so vague they could be twisted to mean anything. It’s just like I said, if someone right wing decides to get into office and define what hate speech means, then they would be the ones deciding what speech should be restricted. A prime example of why freedom of speech should be allowed, look at vladimir putin in russia. He has restricted “pro gay propaganda”, people aren’t allowed to have gay pride parades or say pro gay stuff. That’s horrendous against human rights and it’s one of the reasons I despise putin.

Another reason, is that if you tell people they can’t say something when they have shitty opinions, they will never learn why their shitty opinions are shitty. There was recently a right wing politician named Geert Wilders, who got prosecuted by the courts for hate speech against Muslims, wanting to ban all muslims and the koran, close all masques, and leave the european union if he becomes prime minister. His popularity since the guilty verdict has risen, he may become the dutch next prime minister. That shows that even if you try to limit what people think, that won’t actually change what they think, people will still hold their idiotic beliefs and they will just form an uprising and rebel against the people telling them what not to think.

I mean, there’s puritanical laws throughout all history, from the left wing and the right wing. It’s two sides of the same coin though, it will always lead to the same thing. The fact is that throughout history it’s been absolutely ubiquitous, that there’s going to be two different groups of opinions - a group of people who want reform and enlightened new ideas and progress, and a group of red necks who want to hold on to old ideas and have a hard time thinking in nuanced ways and are bigoted people. If you listen to people talk about all the way back to roman times, this is still a ubiquitous part of human culture. So, unfortunately it’s just another one of those things where we’re not going to be able to solve the problem by simply trying to control what people think.

I think about george orwell, and his book 1984. It’s amazing how that book has non partisan support. I think it’s because the ideas he’s expressing are universal. The reason that people on both sides try to claim orwell, is because there’s something astoundingly universal about the message he was trying to make. What both conservatives and liberals can agree on, is that they don’t want thought crimes, they don’t want omnipresent governments watching over them and arresting them if they detect descent. This is why people hold orwell to such a high regard. It’s not just that it’s the book saying these things which make them true, it’s that it’s reflected in the general opinion of the audience, that the ideas are universal.

If children are never beaten then they'll never know when to take adults seriously. You know why adults need to have this sort of control over their kids? Because adults have already learned, they have went through the mistakes and follies that children have made. Now a days we see a sense of superiority being instilled in children, and this is dangerous because it induces the Dunning Kruger Effect, where people think they're automatically experts on a subject they know very little about. Have you ever seen a kid acting up and being insufferable, and you just want nothing more than to punch it? You know they think they're immune from corporal punishment, which is why they are such smug, ignorant, arrogant, disrespectful little shits.

I just finished that book, holy fuck. It's really amazing how a book could be so dense and tedious, yet at the same time be so surreal and contradictory. It really seems to reflect the state of mind that kafka was in, because apparently he struggled with depression and anxiety in his life, according to his diaries and stuff. It's amazing how in a book, it seems like the words that travel through your head almost act like a code, decrypting the thought patterns and feelings of the person who wrote them in almost a synergistic sense, through the words that were written, like a key turning the tumblers inside of a lock. I found the latter half of the book to be especially challenging to work through, and my mind seemed to fall apart when it came to the scene with the conversation about the gatekeeper and all the story's different interpretations. Incredible book, it reads very much like a dream, the logic in the book is the logic you would find in a dream.

Quote from: Loaf on December 07, 2016, 12:22:15 PM

Quote from: Desty on December 07, 2016, 10:06:24 AM

Never gonna argue with a guy I know is a clown

This is what's known as an ad hominem fallacy. Instead of addressing my argument on it's own merits, you attack the arguer instead.

He's not even talking about you. This is called a I'm not paying attention fallacy.

Okay well he didn't quote anyone.

Quote from: Loaf on December 06, 2016, 06:24:31 PM

Quote from: Jono on December 06, 2016, 06:18:38 PM

Quote from: Loaf on December 06, 2016, 06:12:51 PM

This is seriously a stupid as fuck website.

Leave then already you faggot

But then the website would lose a large fraction of it's overall intelligence.

We still have PSU. This site would be FAR better off with you gone, and people may actually want to post here.

PSU is a raving ignoramus and if you really think he's a bastion of intelligence, then you obviously have much less brains then I immediately gave you credit for. I'm sorry that I have to keep reducing my faith in your brain.

This is seriously a stupid as fuck website.

I skim the hell out of your posts loaf because I don't have the stomach to read through your mangled writing. But I've gotta thank you for providing some form of activity to me. I skim but I do pick up bits and pieces.

You've a notable reputation as being some breed of sub-troll and I can't for the life of me ever take much of what you say in any serious capacity. But you keep the reading fresh.

Shut up.

What makes you think you deserve anything

your mom

happy birthday adub /)^3^(\

I don't ask for anything, really. I appreciate the bundle of stupid little  inexpensive gifts that have some novelty or thought behind them much more than asking for games or something.


Though I might start telling folks to just throw me a brick of 5.56 or 6.5jap if they've got nothing else to go on and don't want to just hand me a card with money or liquor or whatever.

why the fuck would you pay for a video game? or a movie, or music, or software?

Quote from: Loaf on December 05, 2016, 09:57:55 AM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 05, 2016, 09:46:49 AM

Free will absolutely exists. Mental illness can play a role but I'm not buying the whole "I had a rough childhood so you can't blame me for raping and murdering that girl"

It is up to the individual to overcome their circumstances.

What the fuck? You can't say free will exists if you can't even define how we're free. You completely misunderstand the argument against free will, you're just saying the first thing that comes out of your mouth and acting like you know what you're talking about. Granted, I don't actually know whether or not free exists for certain either, but when I look at all the signs that point to whether it doesn't exist, I think it's pretty clear to me that it doesn't exist. The fact that we're biological organisms and our biology is just a reaction of chemicals and the laws of physics, which are actually outside of our control for everything else and we actually don't control our own thoughts, they're created in our sub conscious and observed by our conscious mind; I think that and a lot of other clear factors contribute to why free will doesn't exist, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let some dumbass with no argument tell me so arrogantly that "free will definitely exists". God it's so stupid, stupidity really makes me angry.

You know that voice in your head that offers up shit opinions and ideas? You can choose to ignore that.

The fact that you can ignore that is proof positive that free will exists. If we all did things subconsciously I'd be murdering and raping people all the time.

Moral ambiguity is a whole other concept. Maybe it's not wrong to kill people you don't like, maybe stealing from people isn't as bad as everyone thinks. That doesn't change the fact that you have the free will to choose whether these things are right and wrong and whether or not to do them.

That argument is horrible, how do you know that free will isn't an illusion and you just have the illusion of making choices? Your arguments are just arrogant garbage. You're not killing people and shit because you were fortunate enough to not be born with the biology of a person who kills others, it's that simple.