It's hard but doable.

Quote from: SecondClass on July 27, 2017, 12:11:54 AM

creamy obvs

better thread: how should I drink my newly acquired 4 loko, I have no coke for a chaser

What the fuck you need a fuckin chaser for for a fuckin not even straight liquor what the fuck you woman

I typed this exact response, now I know that Das and I are long lost brothers.

Quote from: Dark Lotus on July 26, 2017, 05:39:27 PM

Many of which is exactly how you generalize. #notallmen was also used ironically.

Notwithstanding the hashtag, a generalization would be if she said "all of which."

"Many" of which implies that she's excluding some men—perhaps even more than half.

I may be inferring it from the language used throughout what you posted.

I have a problem where I can't see a "feminist" post as moderate, it's something I'm working on.

Clyde


Clyde

You've always struck me as more of a Chance tbh

Quote from: Dark Lotus on July 26, 2017, 05:26:05 PM

Quote

This may be purposeful, it may be useful, but it remains inescapably sexist. It exists within a sexist system before a sexist audience, many of which will not interrogate the sexual and gendered questions that the film succeeds in asking for many viewers.

I don't think she's saying that they can't here—merely that they won't, and I think that's a pretty fair assessment of the average male who watched and enjoyed GitS.

She even uses "many of which," so you can't really say she's generalizing.

Many of which is exactly how you generalize. #notallmen was also used ironically.

This may be purposeful, it may be useful, but it remains inescapably sexist. It exists within a sexist system before a sexist audience, many of which will not interrogate the sexual and gendered questions that the film succeeds in asking for many viewers.

Quote from: Dark Lotus on July 26, 2017, 04:30:46 PM

First one isn't bad, that second one is totally rape face tho. It's actually kinda unnerving.

no I'm displaying my big majestical eyes

Rape face

Class -- Anna

This is an excellent article written by someone a lot more articulate than me on this subject.

Or at least, she goes far more in-depth than I'd ever care to.

It has ten parts.

Is tasteful nudity even possible?

http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2014/07/22/ghost-in-the-shell-the-majors-body-1/
http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2014/07/29/ghost-in-the-shell-the-majors-body-2/
http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2014/08/08/ghost-in-the-shell-the-majors-body-3/
http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2014/08/14/ghost-in-the-shell-the-majors-body-4/
http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2014/08/22/in-progress-ghost-in-the-shell-the-majors-body-5/
http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2014/08/29/ghost-in-the-shell-the-majors-body-6/
http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2014/09/05/ghost-in-the-shell-the-majors-body-7-nsfw/
http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2014/09/12/ghost-in-the-shell-the-majors-body-8/
http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2015/04/30/ghost-in-the-shell-the-majors-body-9/
http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2015/09/17/ghost-in-the-shell-2nd-gig/

Quote

The Major, or Motoko Kusanagi, is the protagonist of each incarnation of the Ghost in the Shell manga-anime-merchadise franchise. If you care to google, Motoko Kusanagi is autocompletes to “a man” and “is hot,” then “in bed with a boy” and “in bed.” For a science-fiction philosophy character named for her military position, we (the audience — although I don’t limit this to those who have experienced the fiction, as the Major is iconic) sure are caught up in thinking about her gender and sexual status. Why could that be?

As a long-term fan of the property, and the Major (ask my hairdresser [me]), I wanted to read about the Major’s body. The Major is a cyborg, her visible body is 100% manufactured. Does that relate to the interest in her physicality? I couldn’t find much, so I wrote something myself — one chapter per piece of the franchise. This is the first on Mamoru Oshii’s 1995 animated feature Ghost in the Shell. I’m starting where I started. VHS off eBay. Can I anime?

In Ghost in the Shell, the Major is often nude or seemingly nude. In her opening scenes, for example, her nipple shapes are visible and she has no apparent genitalia. A line at neck level, visible in some short shots, and some possible cloth bunching during a crotch-level close-up suggest a flesh-colour bodysuit to the eagle-eyed viewer. Her breasts are individualised in a way that would have to be designed into a piece of clothing purposefully: how does the fabric adhere to the sternum? Why design a bodysuit that hugs tight as a thong? Apparent nudity, such as later during the water fight scene, is emphasised by the addition of thigh-high boots and low-slung belts at her hips, emphasising the hourglass of her torso and suggesting a sensual pelvic tilt. Her posture is natural, unstudied, and not innately sexualised.

During the credits sequence which follows the creation of a body identical to the Major’s, perhaps a body that is the Major’s, the nipples are focused on and coloured, while the barest hint of genital shape is effected through momentary shapes of light.

Her full-cyborg status is emphasised again in her morning routine immediately post-credits; upon waking, all it takes to be ready to leave is a short moment in another room — an unbroken cel featuring her bedroom and window — followed by the addition of a coat. No washing, no bodily functions, no breakfast.

Advertising for the film features the Major fully nude, penetrated by wires of varying thicknesses, gun in hand and back arched so that her left breast is clear in profile and her buttocks are rounded and elevated, head tilted back.

After the Major’s iconic invisible fight in shallow water, Batou puts his large coat around her shoulder, mirroring the traditional image of the chivalrous man who covers the accidentally uncovered woman, saving her from shame (apparently irrelevant), the elements (the Major cannot be at risk of catching a chill, as she is a cyborg), or both. Later, together on a boat trip, Batou is stirred to see the Major unzip and remove the top half of her wetsuit. He grunts, and looks away, in apparent respect for a modesty she does not appear to require. In the subsequent boat scene, they talk in detail about the (non-sexual) functional differences between an organic and a cyborg body.

It was not translated for American dub audiences, but early in the film the Major makes reference to her menstrual cycle (as a cyborg, she doesn’t menstruate — I’m ignorant on whether her organic brain may retain hormonal alerts related to the expected menstrual cycle). This reproductive/cyborg theme is returned to in the climactic scenes as the Puppetmaster effectively tells the Major she will bear his compu-babies if she agrees to merge with him.

In this film, men appear fully clothed and in many roles, at many levels of society. The puppet master is referred to as male — although this is not confirmed as being for a reason other than default, based on their reputation as a terrorist and/or awakening as an aware being — and appears in a naked, female-designated stock body. At a late stage the Puppetmaster talks with a low voice, spoken by a male voice actor. The Puppetmaster’s nipples, centred in full breasts, are clearly double-tiered and delicately drawn; carefully shaped. Their nose is not detailed in this way, and the mouth is not animated to move with the character’s dialogue until late in the scene (this is subconsciously explained by “it’s a cyborg,” but remains a professional choice made by the filmmakers). This is not an outlandish appropriation of normative women’s breasts, it may be intended similarly to the huge sugar labia of Kara Walker’s A Subtlety, or the Marvelous Sugar Baby; “But what you see from behind is what happens when a nude woman bends over, raising a question of whether it’s a gesture of sexual passivity or not.” They may not be intentionally “idealised” — breasts may be too culturally charged to be able to appear non-sexual without being actively off-putting; perhaps these breasts are designed to be as unremarkable (through their uncomplicated “perfection”) as possible. Why were breasts necessary? Why must the Major be a woman? Why must the Puppetmaster wear this breasted body? Why the nudity? Are these aspects necessary to deliver the story (or more importantly, the thought experiment)?

Imagine the intent of the filmmakers was to neutralise female nudity; avoid sexualisation and use it to float some philosophical musing above a character study on existential crisis. Is it responsible to call the Major, naked, sexualised?

Perhaps unbalanced detail is put into the realistic, subtly emphasised nipples of these woman-designated bodies. (later in the same interview, referenced above, Walker concedes that her Sugar Baby sculpture is “sexually overt,” and resultantly “discomfiting.”) While groundbreaking and challenging in many ways, the film does not escape objectification of what the collective unconscious considers “the female body.” This may be purposeful, it may be useful, but it remains inescapably sexist. It exists within a sexist system before a sexist audience, many of which will not interrogate the sexual and gendered questions that the film succeeds in asking for many viewers. As a teenaged viewer, I was extremely uncomfortable with the semi-conscious awareness that this was how #notallmen considered my body: naked, as a default, whilst they all gits-kusanagiremained clothed. No matter how much I could achieve, mentally or physically, philosophically or emotionally, my body and face are observably female-normative, so I’m rendered nude. Even when clothed, before mentor, colleague, subordinate and victim. I’m the audience, watching the Major, knowing she’s me, knowing I’m a speck in a dust cloud.

I was interested, though. This was food for thought. And she does get things done.

The Major doesn’t let people best her, she sets her own course. She had great hair.

I got something from the Major, which was why I kept paying attention.

It was all good until she implied that no man could derive meaning from the major being naked and how it really doesn't affect anything as she is manufactured.

Somebody better give me a fucking name

Quote from: Dark Lotus on July 26, 2017, 04:17:36 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 26, 2017, 07:47:41 AM

Quote from: Dark Lotus on July 26, 2017, 03:16:02 AM

I think you missed the point of the nude scenes tbh. She's a robot, she has no sex organs. She doesn't feel embarrassed by being nude because it's a non issue. She's an object.

There are other cyborgs using the same technology as her that don't get naked when fighting. There is no excuse.

Going invisible?

Okay, so I took that information from someone I know who I've discussed this with before, and there was a bit of miscommunication.

Apparently, in the first episode of Standalone Complex, she's able to use her cloak while fully clothed.

If true, this contradicts the film, and makes it look even more like the disgusting sexist piece of shit that it is.

Not real sure my dude, but from my understanding she's wearing a skin right suit when she goes invisible anyway, so not technically nude.

Either way, I can see why you're hung up on it.

First one isn't bad, that second one is totally rape face tho. It's actually kinda unnerving.

Quote from: Dark Lotus on July 26, 2017, 03:16:02 AM

I think you missed the point of the nude scenes tbh. She's a robot, she has no sex organs. She doesn't feel embarrassed by being nude because it's a non issue. She's an object.

There are other cyborgs using the same technology as her that don't get naked when fighting. There is no excuse.

Going invisible?

Quote from: Dark Lotus on July 25, 2017, 04:39:52 PM

Besides it being absolutely beautiful it raises questions about AI and what exactly differentiates the living from the manufactured. It's a thinking man's anime and I just figured you'd like that it wasn't just the run of the mill fight the bad guys storyline.

First of all, with the exception of Pokémon, I should note that this is the first anime I've ever actually sat down and watched, several years ago, before I even started watching a bunch of anime. I was thoroughly disgusted and I haven't seen it since, but I'm open for rewatching it. These are my current thoughts in greater detail.

It's not enough for a movie to take a complex philosophical theme and explore it. That alone isn't impressive. It has to thoroughly explore it, and it has to do it well, and that's where the movie fails for me. The fact that it made an attempt, though, was what prevented me from giving it a 1/10. It just wasn't a good enough attempt.

Ghost in the Shell is different from other anime I've tried thus far in that it's driven more by the concepts it's trying to explore rather than the plot itself. Some of my favorite movies of all time do the same thing. What a soul is, whether a cyborg is truly human, what gender means—these are good questions to ask. Great questions, even. I have my own personal yet detailed answers for each and every one of them, and the movie actually does a pretty good job in allowing you to form your own conclusions, rather than spoonfeeding you some ready-made perspective from the director.

But it almost does TOO good a job of allowing that.

When it actually comes to exploring these themes in an intelligent and engaging manner, this is where the movie really fails. It gently wades cautiously above the surface of these questions, delving no deeper than that, and offers no satisfactory closure for any of the questions that it poses. It'll ask, but then it'll refuse to offer anything for the viewer to actually think about beyond a surface level—yet it has the gall to have this pretentious air about it, as though the film thinks it's making a more profound statement than it is. And that's where I start hating it.

I'm sorry, you're not a philosopher if you just write down a question like "WHAT IS A SOUL" on a piece of paper and just leave it hanging. That's not deep, and you're not deep for pondering it. You're not even deep for having an answer. So don't act like you are—it's insufferable. It's like I'm reading an incomplete page from some angsty teenager's diary. And I'm cool with angst—I'm quite angsty myself—but angst + ineptitude + hubris is a pretty bad combination, and I should know a lot about that.

If vapid theme exploration, over-reliance on letting the audience interpret shit for themselves (lazy writing), and an infuriatingly pretentious atmosphere were the only issues I had with the film, I would've only given it a 5/10. At worst. But alas, there are plenty of other things that I had a problem with, too, because there are other things that I look for when it comes to watching movies. And these are what sent me over the edge from simple dislike to sheer contempt.

The Major's design is absolutely repugnant and the amount of fanservice was approaching softcore porn levels.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE for her to be naked during the action scenes WHATSOEVER—beyond being an eye-pleaser for the assumed male audience—and it's extremely difficult for me not to feel INCREDIBLY INSULTED as a male audience member when the STUDIO apparently thinks I'm just too fucking stupid to enjoy, appreciate, and/or hold my attention for an otherwise high-concept movie if there's not a fucking naked-ass woman every other goddamn scene. You may not personally consider this that big of a deal, but for me, it completely undermines not only the film, but what the film is attempting to communicate. It exacerbates the issue I have with the conveyance of the film's messages, because maybe, if they didn't spend so much time worrying about shoving a pair of tits in my face, they could've spent more time developing these interesting philosophical themes. But that's too hard. That's for smart people. We gotta cater to the pubescent twelve-year-old boys in our audience who are only watching this to get their rocks off.

but who cares about respectful portrayals of women in media except for stupid ESS JAY DUBYUH feminazis, amirite

Apparently the manga is even worse, and contains a couple of superfluous sex scenes that have absolutely no bearing on the rest of the story. They really knew their pathetic, shit-eating, scumfuck, misogynistic audience, didn't they? What a fucking joke. At least those scenes were absent in the film, though, on the same token, I'm sure there's some pitiful loser out there who probably thinks worthless sex would add a LOT to the movie (Azumarill, perhaps).

The music wasn't great, the artstyle is as generic and underwhelming as anime gets, the "cinematography" was overwrought and self-indulgent, and like pretty much every other anime I've seen so far, the characters sucked ass and I just didn't care about any of them. The animation was above average, but I'm not the kind of person who's impressed by good animation. It's a fucking cartoon—it SHOULD be well-animated. Good animation cannot raise my score; it can only go down if the animation happens to be bad, because I expect good animation from an animated cartoon. Just like I don't give people credit for knowing how to dress themselves or wipe their asses.

I know someone is going to tell me to watch Standalone Complex, too, and my preemptive response is this: Fuck off, I have no interest in diving into this franchise any further. I'll watch the film again, once more, but I'm not going any further. The movie just wasn't good enough for me to care about anything else in the franchise at all. It's pure shit, and I'm pretty convinced that the majority of people who like this movie only like it for the nude scenes while claiming that the film is a lot more sophisticated than that. That's the impression I get from most anime fans about everything, but it definitely applies here.

It also doesn't help that older films than Ghost in the Shell have already essentially "done it" years before, and often in more compelling ways—Akira, Perfect Blue—and the cyberpunk aesthetic has been done far better by pretty much every other cyberpunk film I can think of. Even the cheesy ones. In fact, the Terminator, a very similar film in concept, was able to have nude scenes featuring Arnold, but they were TASTEFULLY filmed and in a way that didn't completely undermine the deeper themes of the story (it did have a stupid and unnecessary yet relatively tame sex scene, though). And of course, there are countless modern films out there that totally blow GitS out of the water when exploring similar themes.

And that's what I mean when I say I hate it when movies take a bunch of good ideas, but then fuck them up. That's why my initial review was so short—it really is a complete waste of time.

Man, fuck this movie. Anyone who thinks it's deep needs to read a couple books, anyone who thought it was sexy needs to find some porn, and anyone who thought it was good needs to watch a movie. Any movie. If this movie blows your mind, please watch any other movie in existence. You will have your mind blown several times.

I think you missed the point of the nude scenes tbh. She's a robot, she has no sex organs. She doesn't feel embarrassed by being nude because it's a non issue. She's an object.

At the same time the viewer is supposed to feel that kind of guilt/shame because we view her as human. It plays into the humanity of machines and how we humanize them. The scene where she's diving highlights this when bato(?) hands her clothing.

At least that's what I got from it.

As for the pretentious vibe you're feeling I never really got that. I like that it raised more questions than it answered and left it up to viewer interpretation. What you view as lazy I view as giving us the benefit of the doubt and allowing us to come to our own conclusions.

But I've always liked open ended films.

Quote from: Dark Lotus on July 24, 2017, 10:35:05 PM

Quote from: Big Boss on July 24, 2017, 03:40:55 PM

Did anyone else think that Qyburn's solution was to resurrect Balerion as a zombie dragon?

Bit far fetched but it cuts to shots of the dead dragons just after he brings it up, so...

I think it has more to do with the giant ballista she fired.

Well obviously but before he revealed that I thought they were hinting zombie dragons

Zombie dargons are terrifying