The argument against free will under an Abrahamic God

N/A · February 19, 2018, 01:44:40 AM

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Turkey · February 19, 2018, 02:28:02 AM

Quote

If no external factors control oneself, then actions can not be predetermined by outside sources.

If I offer you a choice of $100 or $1, does my knowledge that you will choose the higher amount imply that I controlled your decision?

rC · February 19, 2018, 03:10:38 AM

Quote from: Turkey on February 19, 2018, 02:28:02 AM

Quote
If no external factors control oneself, then actions can not be predetermined by outside sources.

If I offer you a choice of $100 or $1, does my knowledge that you will choose the higher amount imply that I controlled your decision?

If you selected the initial conditions of the universe that led to that decision, you certainly controlled it.

Turkey · February 19, 2018, 05:09:46 AM

Quote from: rC on February 19, 2018, 03:10:38 AM

Quote from: Turkey on February 19, 2018, 02:28:02 AM
Quote
If no external factors control oneself, then actions can not be predetermined by outside sources.

If I offer you a choice of $100 or $1, does my knowledge that you will choose the higher amount imply that I controlled your decision?
If you selected the initial conditions of the universe that led to that decision, you certainly controlled it.

Who says a set of initial conditions of the universe determines every condition? Because our current understanding of physics certainly doesn't have an answer for whether the universe is deterministic. Even OP's definition of 'free will' is flawed:
"We can define free will as rational agents choosing their own course of action."

Okay, I lock you in a room. Can you choose to leave? All actions we will are determined on a macro scale by our environment: I can't fly, nor can I walk out of a locked room, and also on a micro scale: interactions between neurons in my brain, formed through years of varying experiences (my environment) result in the actions I perform. Are neurons affected by quantum indeterminism (which may or may not be true)? Who knows?

We don't have the information to answer the question of free will/determinism. Compatibilists say the universe can be deterministic and free will exists. Libertarians have a differing viewpoint. And ultimately, the scenario of the Abrahamic God is exactly identical to the secular scenario in which the universe exists with initial conditions resulting in symmetrical time and deterministic physics -- except in the former, we have something to shake our fists at.

Verbatim · February 19, 2018, 05:15:55 AM

Quote from: Turkey on February 19, 2018, 02:28:02 AM

Quote
If no external factors control oneself, then actions can not be predetermined by outside sources.
If I offer you a choice of $100 or $1, does my knowledge that you will choose the higher amount imply that I controlled your decision?

i will choose the $1 because i hate money and i just want to fuck with your example

not that i had the free will to make such a decision, or anything―i'm just preordained to be that way

the "knowledge" that i'd choose the higher amount is actually just an assumption, but just because you're not in control of me doesn't mean that i'm in control of me

MarKhan · February 19, 2018, 05:47:56 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 19, 2018, 05:15:55 AM

Quote from: Turkey on February 19, 2018, 02:28:02 AM
Quote
If no external factors control oneself, then actions can not be predetermined by outside sources.
If I offer you a choice of $100 or $1, does my knowledge that you will choose the higher amount imply that I controlled your decision?
i will choose the $1 because i hate money and i just want to fuck with your example

You can just not take money or...

Spoiler

YouTube

MarKhan · February 19, 2018, 06:06:10 AM

If universe is not infinite, it`s locked system and law of Conservation of Energy is true, then universe has limited amount of states it can be in.

Onion · February 19, 2018, 06:20:33 AM

Hey sexy, how are you

N/A · February 19, 2018, 08:28:35 AM

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N/A · February 19, 2018, 08:29:59 AM

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eggsalad · February 19, 2018, 10:25:48 AM

The actual point of contradiction would be an omnipotence paradox. "Omnipotent" should mean they are able to give us free will without sacrificing their omnipotence. Since, well, omnipotent means they can do anything. But of course that just doesn't make sense, because that would include things like "the ability to be omnipotent while not being omnipotent".

Omnipotence is an illogical idea to begin with.

Turkey · February 19, 2018, 07:46:03 PM

Quote from: eggsalad on February 19, 2018, 10:25:48 AM

The actual point of contradiction would be an omnipotence paradox. "Omnipotent" should mean they are able to give us free will without sacrificing their omnipotence. Since, well, omnipotent means they can do anything. But of course that just doesn't make sense, because that would include things like "the ability to be omnipotent while not being omnipotent".

Omnipotence is an illogical idea to begin with.

Theologians don't consider omnipotence to be the ability to do anything, but rather anything in God's nature. The Abrahamic God can't lie, for example. That's not a condition imposed by the environment. In fact the Bible only says God can do whatever he chooses, not anything at all.