The argument against free will under an Abrahamic God

N/A | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Zenmaster
IP: Logged

7,870 posts
 
This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.
Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 01:48:22 AM by Zen


Turkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: Viva Redemption
PSN: HurtfulTurkey
Steam: HurtfulTurkey
ID: HurtfulTurkey
IP: Logged

8,107 posts
 
Quote
If no external factors control oneself, then actions can not be predetermined by outside sources.

If I offer you a choice of $100 or $1, does my knowledge that you will choose the higher amount imply that I controlled your decision?



rC | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: RC5908
IP: Logged

10,532 posts
ayy lmao
Quote
If no external factors control oneself, then actions can not be predetermined by outside sources.

If I offer you a choice of $100 or $1, does my knowledge that you will choose the higher amount imply that I controlled your decision?
If you selected the initial conditions of the universe that led to that decision, you certainly controlled it.


Turkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: Viva Redemption
PSN: HurtfulTurkey
Steam: HurtfulTurkey
ID: HurtfulTurkey
IP: Logged

8,107 posts
 
Quote
If no external factors control oneself, then actions can not be predetermined by outside sources.

If I offer you a choice of $100 or $1, does my knowledge that you will choose the higher amount imply that I controlled your decision?
If you selected the initial conditions of the universe that led to that decision, you certainly controlled it.

Who says a set of initial conditions of the universe determines every condition? Because our current understanding of physics certainly doesn't have an answer for whether the universe is deterministic. Even OP's definition of 'free will' is flawed:
"We can define free will as rational agents choosing their own course of action."

Okay, I lock you in a room. Can you choose to leave? All actions we will are determined on a macro scale by our environment: I can't fly, nor can I walk out of a locked room, and also on a micro scale: interactions between neurons in my brain, formed through years of varying experiences (my environment) result in the actions I perform. Are neurons affected by quantum indeterminism (which may or may not be true)? Who knows?

We don't have the information to answer the question of free will/determinism. Compatibilists say the universe can be deterministic and free will exists. Libertarians have a differing viewpoint.  And ultimately, the scenario of the Abrahamic God is exactly identical to the secular scenario in which the universe exists with initial conditions resulting in symmetrical time and deterministic physics -- except in the former, we have something to shake our fists at.


 
Verbatim
| Komm, süßer Tod
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: Verbatim-1
Steam: Jaco230
ID: Verbatim
IP: Logged

45,565 posts
Quote
If no external factors control oneself, then actions can not be predetermined by outside sources.
If I offer you a choice of $100 or $1, does my knowledge that you will choose the higher amount imply that I controlled your decision?
i will choose the $1 because i hate money and i just want to fuck with your example

not that i had the free will to make such a decision, or anything―i'm just preordained to be that way

the "knowledge" that i'd choose the higher amount is actually just an assumption, but just because you're not in control of me doesn't mean that i'm in control of me
Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 06:02:39 AM by Verbatim


MarKhan | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam: MarKhan54
ID: MarKhan
IP: Logged

1,833 posts
 
Quote
If no external factors control oneself, then actions can not be predetermined by outside sources.
If I offer you a choice of $100 or $1, does my knowledge that you will choose the higher amount imply that I controlled your decision?
i will choose the $1 because i hate money and i just want to fuck with your example
You can just not take money or...

Spoiler
YouTube


MarKhan | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam: MarKhan54
ID: MarKhan
IP: Logged

1,833 posts
 
If universe is not infinite, it`s locked system and law of Conservation of Energy is true, then universe has limited amount of states it can be in.


Onion | Elite Four Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Orion
IP: Logged

3,625 posts
Who the bloody hell is this?
Hey sexy, how are you


N/A | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Zenmaster
IP: Logged

7,870 posts
 
This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.


N/A | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Zenmaster
IP: Logged

7,870 posts
 
This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.


eggsalad | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam: eggsalad
ID: eggsalad
IP: Logged

2,516 posts
 
The actual point of contradiction would be an omnipotence paradox. "Omnipotent" should mean they are able to give us free will without sacrificing their omnipotence. Since, well, omnipotent means they can do anything. But of course that just doesn't make sense, because that would include things like "the ability to be omnipotent while not being omnipotent".

Omnipotence is an illogical idea to begin with.


Turkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: Viva Redemption
PSN: HurtfulTurkey
Steam: HurtfulTurkey
ID: HurtfulTurkey
IP: Logged

8,107 posts
 
The actual point of contradiction would be an omnipotence paradox. "Omnipotent" should mean they are able to give us free will without sacrificing their omnipotence. Since, well, omnipotent means they can do anything. But of course that just doesn't make sense, because that would include things like "the ability to be omnipotent while not being omnipotent".

Omnipotence is an illogical idea to begin with.

Theologians don't consider omnipotence to be the ability to do anything, but rather anything in God's nature. The Abrahamic God can't lie, for example. That's not a condition imposed by the environment. In fact the Bible only says God can do whatever he chooses, not anything at all.

Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 07:47:04 PM by Turkey