So, about Jesus

More Than Mortal · January 18, 2015, 01:36:17 PM

The idea of the Messiah was one of military kingship, who'd command respect from Jews and gentiles alike. Considering this, it doesn't seem altogether unreasonable that the apostles were--essentially--Iron Age, Palestinian revolutionaries. Wouldn't it be more probably that such a group of people would turn their Messiah into a deity, rather than actually seeing him raise from the dead.

challengerX · January 18, 2015, 01:39:22 PM

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Dustin · January 18, 2015, 01:40:19 PM

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More Than Mortal · January 18, 2015, 01:41:20 PM

Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 01:40:19 PM

They could have been different 2000 years ago allowing for these things to happen, who really knows.

Either way he wasn't divine.

clum clum · January 18, 2015, 01:42:57 PM

Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 01:40:19 PM

There's no way to know if the laws of physics are static. They could have been different 2000 years ago allowing for these things to happen, who really knows. But we mustn't be too ignorant of our ancestor's wisdom.

On the scale of the universe.... 2000 years is less than the blink of an eye.

rC · January 18, 2015, 01:56:23 PM

Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 01:40:19 PM

There's no way to know if the laws of physics are static. They could have been different 2000 years ago allowing for these things to happen, who really knows. But we mustn't be too ignorant of our ancestor's wisdom.

i love you

Lemy the Lizerd · January 18, 2015, 01:56:38 PM

HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR MUH FEDORA TIPPING AUTISM ATHEIST MEME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Dustin · January 18, 2015, 01:58:34 PM

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rC · January 18, 2015, 01:59:30 PM

Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 01:58:34 PM

Quote from: Numb Digger on January 18, 2015, 01:42:57 PM
Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 01:40:19 PM
There's no way to know if the laws of physics are static. They could have been different 2000 years ago allowing for these things to happen, who really knows. But we mustn't be too ignorant of our ancestor's wisdom.

On the scale of the universe.... 2000 years is less than the blink of an eye.
Uhh... 2000 years is about a third of the Universe's history. Not even close to a "blink of an eye."

Closer to a fifth, really. Remember, Adam and Eve first graced the Earth 10,000 years ago, not 6,000.

clum clum · January 18, 2015, 02:00:19 PM

Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 01:58:34 PM

Quote from: Numb Digger on January 18, 2015, 01:42:57 PM
Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 01:40:19 PM
There's no way to know if the laws of physics are static. They could have been different 2000 years ago allowing for these things to happen, who really knows. But we mustn't be too ignorant of our ancestor's wisdom.

On the scale of the universe.... 2000 years is less than the blink of an eye.
Uhh... 2000 years is about a third of the Universe's history. Not even close to a "blink of an eye."

explain dinosaurs and dating rocks, then :^)

rC · January 18, 2015, 02:00:41 PM

Quote from: Numb Digger on January 18, 2015, 02:00:19 PM

Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 01:58:34 PM
Quote from: Numb Digger on January 18, 2015, 01:42:57 PM
Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 01:40:19 PM
There's no way to know if the laws of physics are static. They could have been different 2000 years ago allowing for these things to happen, who really knows. But we mustn't be too ignorant of our ancestor's wisdom.

On the scale of the universe.... 2000 years is less than the blink of an eye.
Uhh... 2000 years is about a third of the Universe's history. Not even close to a "blink of an eye."

explain dinosaurs and dating rocks, then :^)

A test of our faith.

Dustin · January 18, 2015, 02:00:59 PM

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clum clum · January 18, 2015, 02:01:38 PM

Quote from: RC on January 18, 2015, 02:00:41 PM

Quote from: Numb Digger on January 18, 2015, 02:00:19 PM
Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 01:58:34 PM
Quote from: Numb Digger on January 18, 2015, 01:42:57 PM
Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 01:40:19 PM
There's no way to know if the laws of physics are static. They could have been different 2000 years ago allowing for these things to happen, who really knows. But we mustn't be too ignorant of our ancestor's wisdom.

On the scale of the universe.... 2000 years is less than the blink of an eye.
Uhh... 2000 years is about a third of the Universe's history. Not even close to a "blink of an eye."

explain dinosaurs and dating rocks, then :^)
A test of our faith.

these memes are awesome dude!

More Than Mortal · January 18, 2015, 02:02:13 PM

Oh my fucking God if you derail another fucking thread I'll hunt you down.

Dustin · January 18, 2015, 02:03:15 PM

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challengerX · January 18, 2015, 02:05:24 PM

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R o c k e t · January 18, 2015, 02:29:38 PM

I get mentioned in these threads all the time, but never notice them XD

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 18, 2015, 01:36:17 PM

The idea of the Messiah was one of military kingship, who'd command respect from Jews and gentiles alike.

The Jews were expecting a conquering King who would come in and "save the day", so to speak. They basically expected what the Christians expect on the 2nd coming of Christ: a King conquering His enemies.

So imagine their surprise when they encounter Jesus. He rides into Jerusalem on a donkey(which means He comes in peace) instead of a horse(He comes to conquer).

He is a carpenter, and washes the feet of others. He doesn't have wealth or riches.
He's a Servant King.

More Than Mortal · January 18, 2015, 02:44:35 PM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on January 18, 2015, 02:29:38 PM

The Jews were expecting a conquering King who would come in and "save the day", so to speak. They basically expected what the Christians expect on the 2nd coming of Christ: a King conquering His enemies.

So imagine their surprise when they encounter Jesus. He rides into Jerusalem on a donkey(which means He comes in peace) instead of a horse(He comes to conquer).

He is a carpenter, and washes the feet of others. He doesn't have wealth or riches.
He's a Servant King.

Okay, so do you want to actually answer the question in the OP?

R o c k e t · January 18, 2015, 02:45:28 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 18, 2015, 02:44:35 PM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on January 18, 2015, 02:29:38 PM
The Jews were expecting a conquering King who would come in and "save the day", so to speak. They basically expected what the Christians expect on the 2nd coming of Christ: a King conquering His enemies.

So imagine their surprise when they encounter Jesus. He rides into Jerusalem on a donkey(which means He comes in peace) instead of a horse(He comes to conquer).

He is a carpenter, and washes the feet of others. He doesn't have wealth or riches.
He's a Servant King.
Okay, so do you want to actually answer the question in the OP?

You left out the question mark, I saw it more as a statement >.>

Sure it's possible. They could have said "ermagerd Jesus rose form the dead" and it could all be an elaborate ruse. Except there were some Roman soldiers guarding the tomb.

What would the point be though? To overthrow the Roman Empire?

More Than Mortal · January 18, 2015, 02:48:27 PM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on January 18, 2015, 02:45:28 PM

Except there were some Roman soldiers guarding the tomb.

Why would they have Roman soldiers guarding the tomb? That doesn't make sense.

Not to mention, that doesn't discredit the idea that the apostles could've just made up his resurrection.

R o c k e t · January 18, 2015, 03:06:36 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 18, 2015, 02:48:27 PM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on January 18, 2015, 02:45:28 PM
Except there were some Roman soldiers guarding the tomb.
Why would they have Roman soldiers guarding the tomb? That doesn't make sense.

Not to mention, that doesn't discredit the idea that the apostles could've just made up his resurrection.

The Sanhedrin knew of Jesus' claims He would rise from the dead. So they petitioned Pilate to have a Roman Guard keep watch on the tomb.

So the issue of the Resurrection is this: What happened to the Roman Guard and where is the body?
The disciples were in hiding, and most didn't believe Jesus would be resurrected. So for them to try and steal the body seems foolhardy. They were rather poor, so a bribe isn't very plausible.

Turkey · January 18, 2015, 05:19:28 PM

Not really, they had very little to gain. The apostles all died from torture, execution, or exile. No reason to lie about seeing him after his death, especially the ones that weren't even Jews.

Alternative Facts · January 18, 2015, 06:37:49 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on January 18, 2015, 05:19:28 PM

Not really, they had very little to gain. The apostles all died from torture, execution, or exile. No reason to lie about seeing him after his death, especially the ones that weren't even Jews.

To continue spreading faith in Jesus? Who knows

We're talking about nearly 2000 year old texts that were written by a few men, and little way to prove any of it is real.

Turkey · January 18, 2015, 06:58:33 PM

Quote from: Icy on January 18, 2015, 06:37:49 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on January 18, 2015, 05:19:28 PM
Not really, they had very little to gain. The apostles all died from torture, execution, or exile. No reason to lie about seeing him after his death, especially the ones that weren't even Jews.

To continue spreading faith in Jesus? Who knows

We're talking about nearly 2000 year old texts that were written by a few men, and little way to prove any of it is real.

Well the NT has more textual integrity than any other ancient writing by orders of magnitude, they were compiled by eyewitness testimonies and are supported by extrabiblical sources to much of the key elements, and there was no reason for anyone to falsify their accounts seeing as Christians were persecuted and killed for hundreds of years afterward. There's ostensibly no other religion with as much credibility in terms of historicity and consistency, and no other that has withstood such enduring scrutiny.

Dustin · January 18, 2015, 07:18:39 PM

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Turkey · January 18, 2015, 07:28:50 PM

Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 07:18:39 PM

So you're saying the Bible is the most credible of all holy books?

Unquestionably, yes.

Quote

And do you really think Jesus rose from the dead or is that supposed to be figurative?

If it were figurative then there'd be no Christianity. Something that can't overcome death can hardly be called a deity.

Assassin 11D7 · January 18, 2015, 07:33:13 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on January 18, 2015, 07:28:50 PM

Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 07:18:39 PM
So you're saying the Bible is the most credible of all holy books?
Unquestionably, yes.
Quote
And do you really think Jesus rose from the dead or is that supposed to be figurative?

If it were figurative then there'd be no Christianity. Something that can't overcome death can hardly be called a deity.

How do you explain that though? Somebody literally rising from the dead makes no sense scientifically today, and it's pretty far-fetched to get people to believe, don't you think?

Turkey · January 18, 2015, 07:36:21 PM

Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on January 18, 2015, 07:33:13 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on January 18, 2015, 07:28:50 PM
Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 07:18:39 PM
So you're saying the Bible is the most credible of all holy books?
Unquestionably, yes.
Quote
And do you really think Jesus rose from the dead or is that supposed to be figurative?

If it were figurative then there'd be no Christianity. Something that can't overcome death can hardly be called a deity.
How do you explain that though? Somebody literally rising from the dead makes no sense scientifically today, and it's pretty far-fetched to get people to believe, don't you think?

I mean, if you're willing to assume the reality of an omnipotent being, then I don't think that same being resurrecting a corporeal part of itself is a huge stretch of the imagination.

Assassin 11D7 · January 18, 2015, 07:41:48 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on January 18, 2015, 07:36:21 PM

Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on January 18, 2015, 07:33:13 PM
Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on January 18, 2015, 07:28:50 PM
Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 07:18:39 PM
So you're saying the Bible is the most credible of all holy books?
Unquestionably, yes.
Quote
And do you really think Jesus rose from the dead or is that supposed to be figurative?

If it were figurative then there'd be no Christianity. Something that can't overcome death can hardly be called a deity.
How do you explain that though? Somebody literally rising from the dead makes no sense scientifically today, and it's pretty far-fetched to get people to believe, don't you think?
I mean, if you're willing to assume the reality of an omnipotent being, then I don't think that same being resurrecting a corporeal part of itself is a huge stretch of the imagination.

Isn't that blatantly breaking the laws this universe follows, though? Why would God create the laws of physics just to break them later on, if he knows everything that has been and will be?

Turkey · January 18, 2015, 07:53:48 PM

Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on January 18, 2015, 07:41:48 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on January 18, 2015, 07:36:21 PM
Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on January 18, 2015, 07:33:13 PM
Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on January 18, 2015, 07:28:50 PM
Quote from: Dustin xLilD on January 18, 2015, 07:18:39 PM
So you're saying the Bible is the most credible of all holy books?
Unquestionably, yes.
Quote
And do you really think Jesus rose from the dead or is that supposed to be figurative?

If it were figurative then there'd be no Christianity. Something that can't overcome death can hardly be called a deity.
How do you explain that though? Somebody literally rising from the dead makes no sense scientifically today, and it's pretty far-fetched to get people to believe, don't you think?
I mean, if you're willing to assume the reality of an omnipotent being, then I don't think that same being resurrecting a corporeal part of itself is a huge stretch of the imagination.
Isn't that blatantly breaking the laws this universe follows, though? Why would God create the laws of physics just to break them later on, if he knows everything that has been and will be?

I'm confused; where is death covered in the laws of physics? The laws of motion don't discuss it, nor do the laws of thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, or any other field. Already we're grasping the ways to manipulate the world around us to prolong life, and pull someone back from the brink. It's not unbelievable that if humanity continues to prosper, death may soon become a thing of the past (and by 'soon' I'm speaking in the scope of all of human existence). Whether that's through the 'singularity' or by advanced medicine is only speculation. To think that a being with access to ostensibly infinite information, or even literally in direct control of the entire universe, couldn't do something as simple as resurrect a human body after three days is simply untenable.

If you're interested in more of a scientific approach to theology, check out John Polkinghorne. He's an eminent physicist and an Anglican priest that is arguably the leader in bridging the fields of religion and science. For a logic-based orator, check out Ravi Zacharias, one of the foremost theologians alive today.