Should we apply modern moral values to monuments from the past?

FatherlyNick 🇷🇺 | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Hey.
I came here from b.net after a few Floods invited me. None of them post on either b.net nor here anymore, which is sad. I was still active on b.net until for some bizarre reason, b.net admins locked out people who have not played Destiny. Even if you wanted to post on the offtopic section. After that, I fully moved here and have not returned to b.net since.
Please come play Halo with me.
🤔
Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 04:32:47 PM by FatherlyNick 🇷🇺


 
Verbatim
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what do you mean

it's important to acknowledge past wrongdoings, because that's the only way to move forward

but the past is also over, so you can't really apply stuff to what isn't even happening anymore


FatherlyNick 🇷🇺 | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Hey.
I came here from b.net after a few Floods invited me. None of them post on either b.net nor here anymore, which is sad. I was still active on b.net until for some bizarre reason, b.net admins locked out people who have not played Destiny. Even if you wanted to post on the offtopic section. After that, I fully moved here and have not returned to b.net since.
Please come play Halo with me.
what do you mean

it's important to acknowledge past wrongdoings, because that's the only way to move forward

but the past is also over, so you can't really apply stuff to what isn't even happening anymore
I'm talking about the statue take-downs that seem to be very popular right now. I am conflicted about it.

Okay some of these people did things that are VERY bad today but were matter-of-fact back then.

Maybe we should look at why a specific monument was erected?
Even bad people do good things sometimes but we should remember the good and the bad too.

Would we destroy the pyramids? Huge monuments built with blood and sweat of slaves to honor their masters.


E | Respected Posting Frenzy
 
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The monument demolishing is the same principle as what's recently been nicknamed cancel culture. The real roots of cancel culture lie in the growth of political correctness and attempting to whitewash impact and truth. To answer the question, I'd simply ask another question. Is blacklisting somebody and destroying their career a correct moral move to make over some internet statement made over a decade ago?

Personally I don't think so, because it does not acknowledge the possibility that said individual has matured or grown in that time span. I think this principle should be applied to monuments as well. It's a relic from another era. Information is the most important tool we have, whether or not the information suits our worldviews. These monuments provide a window into viewing the past and the people in that past, no matter how ugly. If anything, they should act as a reminder of what we could become again if we don't watch our step. We shouldn't give in to kneejerk emotional responses, "bad man in past must be erased!"

Bad man in past must be studied so that his mistakes are not replicated.


 
DAS B00T x2
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
To a degree. Someone like Washington should still be held in high regard despite being a slave owner. Name things after him.

Someone like Columbus being so lauded these days is actually a relatively new phenomenon (19th centuryish) and kinda fucking weird considering the spanish crown that sent him over here fucking jailed him after his return for being suck brutal fucking cock to the natives. Tear his shit down, build statues of Leif Erickson.

Monuments of confederates make sense in the context of a place where they were important historically speaking. A statue of Lee or Picket or Longstreet at Gettysburg or a memorial to any person slain there is not out of place nor necessarily glorifying any cause. A statue of Lee in the middle of a city in Tennessee erected during Jim Crow for the intent of scaring the niggers back in to remembering their place is not historically relevant and should be tossed for something more culturally relevant to the place it was in.


Ian | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Signature goes here.
Aren't some Confederate Generals remembered more for their battle strategies/tactics and are still being taught to this day? Seems like just as good a reason to keep a statue up when you really know how to keep your opponent back while having your hands tied behind you.

Monuments of confederates make sense in the context of a place where they were important historically speaking. A statue of Lee or Picket or Longstreet at Gettysburg or a memorial to any person slain there is not out of place nor necessarily glorifying any cause. A statue of Lee in the middle of a city in Tennessee erected during Jim Crow for the intent of scaring the niggers back in to remembering their place is not historically relevant and should be tossed for something more culturally relevant to the place it was in.


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
Aren't some Confederate Generals remembered more for their battle strategies/tactics and are still being taught to this day? Seems like just as good a reason to keep a statue up when you really know how to keep your opponent back while having your hands tied behind you.

Monuments of confederates make sense in the context of a place where they were important historically speaking. A statue of Lee or Picket or Longstreet at Gettysburg or a memorial to any person slain there is not out of place nor necessarily glorifying any cause. A statue of Lee in the middle of a city in Tennessee erected during Jim Crow for the intent of scaring the niggers back in to remembering their place is not historically relevant and should be tossed for something more culturally relevant to the place it was in.
That's a little less of "these men were fucking Gustav Adolf levels of brilliant" and more "these men are fighting the first big western war since  a certain technology became general issue and have to figure out how to best use rifled muskets and their advantages over the smoothbores of last year's war against Mexico before the other guy does." Whatever they do is gonna be novel and will probably apply to small unit tactics for as long as rifles are the primary weapon of the infantry.


Aether | Mythic Invincible!
 
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theaetherone.deviantart.com https://www.instagram.com/aetherone/

Long live NoNolesNeckin.

Ya fuckin' ganderneck.
If a statue exist that represents a person we as a society no longer deem to be worthy of glorification then we can choose to remove it, but I don't believe art should ever be destroyed and neither should historical monuments. Auschwitz still exists even though it could've been torn down decades ago because it stands as a permanent reminder of the atrocities that took place there. Something humanity should never forget.

Let a community vote on whether or not a statue should be removed, and if they vote yes, then just take it down and put it in a museum or at least in storage until somewhere appropriate is found to put it.


 
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what do you mean

it's important to acknowledge past wrongdoings, because that's the only way to move forward

but the past is also over, so you can't really apply stuff to what isn't even happening anymore
I'm talking about the statue take-downs that seem to be very popular right now. I am conflicted about it.
my bad, i'm out of the loop

i'll read up and comment later


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Best way to repeat history is to forget it.


MarKhan | Legendary Invincible!
 
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If you bend your mind towards the challenge, the skill will follow in your hands
Well, I won't miss Lenin statues, that's for sure. Might keep one as a reminder in museum.

Should we apply modern morals to monuments of past? Yes, but we also have to take into account history behind them, that contributes a lot to what we deside to do with them.


Coomer | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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People are multidimensional and not all good nor all bad. Statues are put up to commemorate a certain aspect of a person. Like how statutes of Washington are meant to pay homage to his role in establishing America, not the fact that he owned slaves. That being said, I am in support of the taking down of confederate statutes because they represent people who took up arms against America.

I think the reason people are against the taking down of these statues is because of how closely linked the movement is to cancel culture. People are (rightly) worried about the revision of history. But nations are fluid through history and things we value today may not be valued a century from now. It's important we remember them but it doesn't need to be in the form of a statute.


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If you bend your mind towards the challenge, the skill will follow in your hands
Also we are going to apply modern values regardless of whether you do something with those monumens or not, after all inaction can speak as loud as action.


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
A monument by nature is purposefully designed to commemorate an historical figure for their past deeds. Removing statues honouring slave traders does not "revise" or nullify history any more than removing swastika flags and banners in Germany post 1945 did. You can appreciate and understand historical context without having to aggrandise morally bankrupt people with memorials.

Statues celebrating individual people are fucking stupid anyway. You can't attribute multi faceted historical feats to one person.
Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 12:07:36 PM by Mordo


🍁 Aria 🔮 | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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His eyebrows sparkling, his white beard hangs down to his chest. The thatched mats, spread outside his chise, spread softly, his splendid attos. He polishes, cross-legged, his makiri, with his eyes completely absorbed.

He is Ainu.

The god of Ainu Mosir, Ae-Oine Kamuy, descendant of Okiku-Rumi, He perishes, a living corpse. The summers day, the white sunlight, unabrushed, ends simply through his breath alone.
Statues are inherently commemorative. People who divided the country over their desire to perpetuate chattel slavery don't deserve to be commemorated. No, we will not forget any "important" figures because their statues are gone. Just like Auschwitz sill stands, so remain the battlefields in Gettysburg and elsewhere; so remain the thousands of museum pieces; and so remain the losers who perpetuate the Lost Cause nonsense.

Also an overwhelming majority of Confederate statues in the South were erected by the Daughters of the Confederacy DECADES after the Civil War ended. These aren't holdovers from when the Confederacy was alive (which would at least make the statues somewhat historically relevant), they were reminders to every Black man and woman in the South that institutionalized racism didn't end with slavery.

Statues celebrating individual people are fucking stupid anyway. You can't attribute multi faceted historical feats to one person.
Except Dolly Parton, who in 1973 ushered in the new age with her seminal masterpiece "I Will Always Love You".
Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 10:48:59 AM by 🍁 Aria 🔮


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The majority of the Confederate statues were built in the 20th century by the Daughters of the Confederacy in response to the Civil Rights Movement. Any commemorative meaning behind these statues has only value held in racism, as that is why they were raised in the first place.

We should not have statues in celebration for traitors to the country, as that is what the Confederacy and its legacy is: A heritage of traitorous states that seceded so they could maintain the right to hold people in slavery.


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gurb
My issue is when people get caught up in the mob mentality and advocate for the removal of statues that are more or less unrelated. A history professor at my university spoke about a WW1 monument being destroyed because people thought it was a Confederate monument.

Right now, people in St. Louis are trying to get a statue of the city's namesake torn down, which I disagree with.
Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 05:58:25 AM by Mmmmm Napalm


Joan_of_Boat | Respected Posting Spree
 
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There are many people who are aware of these individuals and rightfully feel uncomfortable walking past them to this day.

It's their opinion that matters more, not ours.

Spoiler
Also, Auschwitz is an entirely different thing because it was a death camp used to kill millions of people, and the Nazis wanted to get RID of it due to it being evidence of their extremely serious atrocities against humanity.

Also, whoever compared 19th century carved rock to the beautiful ancient pyramids created way BC is obviously forgetting a few things. That's all/
Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 01:21:13 AM by Joan_of_Boat


 
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We knew the world would not be the same.
A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent.
I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita.
Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty
and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says,
"Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.."
I suppose we all thought that one way or another.
The majority of the Confederate statues were built in the 20th century by the Daughters of the Confederacy in response to the Civil Rights Movement. Any commemorative meaning behind these statues has only value held in racism, as that is why they were raised in the first place.

We should not have statues in celebration for traitors to the country, as that is what the Confederacy and its legacy is: A heritage of traitorous states that seceded so they could maintain the right to hold people in slavery.
This is basically what I was going to post. The Daughters of the Confederacy, a group also responsible for most of the rewriting about slavery and the civil war in children's textbooks, are the ones responsible for most of the monuments. They should be torn down though a few should also go into museums. Context matters, especially when you consider that most were built during the Jim Crow and Civil Rights eras.
Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 09:34:10 AM by ಠ_ಠ