Fair, I dont consider myself racist but using a phrase like 'oh shit nigga' is one that can be used in my group from time to time, that being said it has eased up a hell of a lot these past few years. Im comfortable with the phrase, of course you dont say it to just anyone. That being said wasnt aware it wasnt all that uncommon.

And I said it as more of a satirical sense not racial, but this was way back when and we've all become a lot more careful these days.

I just want to add that jokingly going "oh shit nigga" is absolutely not the same or comparable to literally saying "you fucking nigger" at someone because you're upset and want to lash out.

Either way, I just think influencers like Pewdiepie (because I'm really not talking about just him) should take more responsibility and be proactive about countering this stuff in their communities. It seems like crazy talk that gaming and meme youtubers can lead people to radical political opinions, but several leadership figures within the alt right like Bannon (Trump's former campaign manager) and the Stormfront admins have openly talked about how this is one of their most successful recruitment techniques and that Pewdiepie is one of /ourguys/ who fosters an edgy counter-culture that's the perfect breeding ground for people to normalize racism, sexism, conspiracy theories and such under the guise of jokes and memes aimed at an impressionable audience that is gradually introduced to ever more hardline and divisive political content. And all of that is definitely something worth discussing.

Quote from: Flee on March 16, 2019, 12:35:56 PM

People are very right in looking for solutions to these complicated problems.

I disagree with the notion that anti-SJW crowd is a gateway toward extremism, especially when most of the people you listed have denounced Alex Jones, the alt-right, the great replacement, etc. Felix may have right-wing, possibly even alt-right, views but you have to dig through his "Following" list on twitter to see it; it doesn't reflect in his content. This seems like little more than thought-policing.

The shooter had stated that he specifically picked his rifle in order to violently escalate the gun debate. Does it really seem likely that he was radicalized by Pewdiepie, or that he wanted people to think he was radicalized by Pewdiepie? I doubt that he was genuinely a fan of Pewdiepie or Candace Owens, and when the media uses this as an opportunity to reignite their agendas against these people, it is just playing right into the killer's hands.

This is why we should stop giving exposure to killers and their motives. There's a discussion to be had about communities like 8chan, gun control, and mental health, but much of the "discussion" is just further polarizing people.

I disagree with most of that.

Who are you to say that these people are not genuinely looking for solutions when they bring up gun control, media influencers, radicalization and so on? I presented several ways in which these might have all played a role in this attack. I would never condone any harassment but let's not pretend that a small group (of students) confronting Clinton isn't anything more than just that. Don't forget what my post actually said: that I reject Batch his comment that people bringing up other (problematic) things are just ignoring the problem because they just want to push their own narrative. While that might be true for some people, I doubt it's a majority. Most are just calling out the problems where they see them and sometimes fingers do need to be pointed and some people do need to take some responsibility. We shouldn't avoid the difficult sides of this debate because it would be polarizing.

Denouncing "the alt right" when you share many of the same views, attack the same people and present a slightly watered down version of what the most notorious voices are saying doesn't mean much. The people I listed absolutely contribute to the radicalization and polarization of large groups of people, and they do it much more than people who, for example, simply call for further gun control after a massacre like this. I think it's disingenuous to pretend this doesn't happen when people like Bannon and Stormfront have explicitly commented on how useful of a recruitment technique it is. And you and I have some pretty different views on how the "fucking nigger", "death to all jews", Shapiro as a host, promoting a holocaust denier channel and all the other stuff somehow are not politics being reflected in his content. I personally have nothing against Pewdiepie and don't care about him either way, but I'm disappointed by how little he does to manage serious concerns.

I never said the shooter was radicalized by Pewdiepie. I said it's perfectly fair to have a discussion on how his influence might play a part in funneling people towards shitty and radical communities, and that we can definitely argue he should take some more responsibility for his actions and be more proactive in stopping bad stuff from festering among his followers. It's also a very strange choice of words when you say that the media seizes this as an "opportunity to reignite their agendas against these people", as if this is some random campaign against some people they just don't like rather than wholly justified responses against them actually doing shitty things and promoting very shitty views. Let's not pretend this is some unfounded smear campaign against an innocent epic gamer.

I'm well aware of the research on media contagion, but any discussion would be polarizing people. You can frame this in the nicest possible way and you'd still have millions of people go "how dare you use this for your political gains". I think the media's been pretty great about this as I've only seen one article drop his name, but we can't just ignore what led to this either. Your entire position seems kinda contradictory as you both admit that there's a discussion to be had but simultaneously appear to be dismiss any of it actually happening. We can both agree that there's going to be loud and shitty people in any discussion on any side, but that doesn't do anything to my rejection of Batch his position of "people bringing any of this up are just avoiding the problem" nor does it suggest how we can be more constructive about it (as you seem to just dismiss the media talking about it as "reigniting their agendas").

Also, just to get back to the influencers that you said do not foster communities which might radicalize people, I spent 10 minutes looking through some of their videos. Among the top rated comments with dozens to hundreds of upvotes were gems like:

"Just shoot them" (in reference to transgender rights activists).
"Putin acts like a fucking leader, feminism is illegal in Russia".
"There's two places for this mental illness. jail or out of my country" (referring to transgenders).
"Legally recognizing feminism was one of the worst mistakes the US has ever made as a country".
"Asylum seekers are warriors and invaders. Let armed patrols take care of them."
"They do not deserve constitutional rights" (referring to Muslims in America).
"Not only is it evil to normalize pedophilia. But it’s actually the agenda of the progressive leftist machine!!"
"Those who let Muslims into the country are more responsible" (referring to the NZ shooting).
"Arm yourself and prepare, the end war for our land and people is coming".
"All non-Europeans must be evicted from our country".
"Was he wrong? No." (in response to a far right politician saying that "women must earn less than men because they're less intelligent" and doing the Hitler salute in parliament - someone who Sargon defended as bringing "facts").

There's thousands more of these popular comments and they get even worse on smaller but similar channels. They're incredibly common and take mere minutes to find. And I'm not even talking about some lonely fringe bad apples. I sorted by "top rated" and only quoted those that had a good amount of likes and positive responses. Hell, the current top post on the Peterson subreddit is a meta commentary on how the community has been taking a dangerous turn as a notable part has become more radical. "An astonishing number of the posts are related to race realism, white replacement, and strawmanning progressive positions. Many posts related to the NZ shooting deemphasize the dangers of right wing extremism and present radical Islam as a bigger problem, and some even claim the NZ attack was a false flag." There's people in that very thread literally talking about how they got into Peterson because of his self help and philosophical work only to leave the sub again because they felt it led them on to a much more radical right wing community and views.

I also picked a random video from Sargon's channel from the past two weeks that wasn't about Brexit. In the sidebar of recommended videos? Links to the official channel of Paul Joseph Watson - InfoWars host, Alex Jones' right hand and far right conspiracy theorist. Links to the personal channel of Tommy Robinson - founder and former leader of several hardline far right groups who showed up at a journalist's house in the middle of the night to intimidate him just weeks ago. Videos of Sargon interviewing Tommy. Channels such as "Trigger Happy Media", apparently dedicated to liberals and SJW's getting owned compilations, "Right Politics", Steven Crowder and Ben Shapiro with plenty of links to Gab pages and all the much worse stuff you'll find there. It took me two clicks to get from Sargon to "Alltime Conspiracies", and just one more to get into the "beware the New World Order and rise up" part of youtube.

I'm open to hear what you think but I find it difficult to look at this stuff and still try to deny that this content really is a gateway to a much more radical and combative community that holds some abhorrent views and normalizes them to impressionable people. You don't have to shoot 50 people in order to hold extremist views, but even then there's a lot to go by. Elliott Rodger killing 6 people in 2014, far right incel leaving a manifesto filled with racist and sexist views. Dylan Roof killing 9 colored people in a church in 2015, self-proclaimed white supremacist and member of the alt-right. Bissonnett killing 6 praying Muslims in Canada 2017, far right extremist and hardcore Trump supporter known for his anti-Muslim and anti-feminist posts online. Fields driving into a crowd and injuring around 30 people (killing 1) in 2017, far right extremist part of the "Unite the Right" alt right crowd. Beierle shooting (but not all fatally) 6 women in 2018, far right incel with similar views to Rodger. Minassian killing 10 people in Toronto in 2018, again citing Rodger and anti-feminism as an inspiration.

These people aren't your typical ultra-nationalist skinheads wearing swastikas that you might think of when you hear "far right terrorism". They're almost all young, impressionable and very active online where their frustrations with their inability to get a relationship or succeed in life were fueled by a vocal community turning them against "the establishment" and society, feeding them misleading bullshit through these content creators, putting the blame everywhere but themselves, and ultimately radicalizing them after extensive normalization of racism, sexism and violence. This absolutely is dangerous and it's a real problem too. After leaders of the alt right admitting it themselves, I really don't see how anyone can still deny this.