Is transgenderism a mental disorder?

Verbatim · September 14, 2014, 06:08:10 PM

Calling SecondClass a bigot is pretty silly. Is someone who wants to find a way to prevent/treat autism an ableist?

September 14, 2014, 06:13:36 PM

Quote from: Nuka on September 14, 2014, 06:10:35 PM

So then what about people that walk around in tattoos or piercings? Some people think it's wrong and disgusting, and they're clearly showing that off to the public. Soooo terrible.

That's not even on remotely the same level as the way herms look.

Ásgeirr · September 14, 2014, 06:14:45 PM

Wait...this hermaphrodite thing is real?

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat???

Verbatim · September 14, 2014, 06:15:04 PM

Quote from: Nuka on September 14, 2014, 06:11:27 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on September 14, 2014, 06:08:10 PM
Calling SecondClass a bigot is pretty silly. Is someone who wants to find a way to prevent/treat autism an ableist?
Because calling out semantics will get you so far. You know what I meant, don't bother twisting it.

Well, if you're going to fucking impinge on someone's character, that's just kinda bullshit, isn't it? Yeah, it's called SLANDER. Would you like me to call you a Nazi pig rapist?

You're the most Nazi-esque pig raping fucktoid I've ever seen. There. Is that a fair way to argue?
No, insult someone properly if you're gonna do it at all. Please.

My point is that you're obviously just trying to call him a bigot because you know it'll make you look like the good guy. It's a cheap ploy. No, he's not a bigot, no one here's a bigot in that regard (except maybe PSU), find a better insult.

DAS B00T x2 · September 14, 2014, 06:20:19 PM

Quote from: Ossku on September 14, 2014, 06:14:45 PM

Wait...this hermaphrodite thing is real?

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat???

I know, this whole time I thought they were a myth too.

rC · September 14, 2014, 06:22:45 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on September 14, 2014, 06:15:04 PM

Nazi-esque pig raping fucktoid

is that really what you'd consider a quality insult?

Verbatim · September 14, 2014, 06:25:29 PM

Quote from: RC5908 on September 14, 2014, 06:22:45 PM

is that really what you'd consider a quality insult?

Dumbcunt alert.

The "quality" of the insult isn't the point, jackass.
The point is that he's clearly not a Nazi, nor is he a pig rapist. As far as I know.

In terms you can understand (maybe):
Slander is bad.

If he can't demonstrate SecondClass's bigotry, he has no place calling him a bigot.
Blocked.

rC · September 14, 2014, 06:28:49 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on September 14, 2014, 06:25:29 PM

Quote from: RC5908 on September 14, 2014, 06:22:45 PM
is that really what you'd consider a quality insult?
Dumbcunt alert.

The "quality" of the insult isn't the point, jackass.
The point is that he's clearly not a Nazi, nor is he a pig rapist. As far as I know.

In terms you can understand (maybe):
Slander is bad.

If he can't demonstrate SecondClass's bigotry, he has no place calling him a bigot.

Quote from: Verbatim on September 14, 2014, 06:15:04 PM

No, insult someone properly if you're gonna do it at all. Please.

You definitely implied that that was a proper insult. Is dumbcunt a proper insult too?

Mr. Psychologist · September 14, 2014, 06:29:27 PM

I was going to avoid this thread until tomorrow but what the heck.

I won't get involved in the argument itself, but I'll raise a few points that I think are important to note.
The entire debate is a minefield of semantics, getting bogged down in an argument over that is a bit pointless so anyway <.<

Basic points of terminology
Gender - Male or Female
Sex - Male or Female
(I'm not being -convoluted insult-ist to anyone, I'm just keeping this simple for the sake of brevity.)

MyNameIsCharlie said something quite a while back, to the effect of this
We don't understand a lot about the human brain, is it really too farfetched to consider the possibility of people being born with the 'wrong' brain (Male/Female) in regards to their genitals.
Then there is the question of 'Are they actually born with the wrong one?' and that's where it starts to lead into semantics. It is Abnormal, but that doesn't denote that it is wrong or incorrect. Just a rare occurrence.

There have been several high profile and abhorrent experiments that have demonstrated how much of a bad idea it is to try and force someone's brain/mind to fit into a category that it does not belong. David Reiner for example. I don't know of any happy endings where someone has had their mental state reassigned to match their genitalia, but I know of plenty of miserable endings.

Gender Dysphoria would be where the disconnect between the Gender of the Brain and Body causes distress and problems for the individual.

So if changing the mind causes catastrophic damage and changing the body to match the mind does not... which seems like the right path to take for treatment?

The question of if it's a mental disorder isn't one that can be answered properly, It can cause mental disorders but I would call it a condition rather than disorder. It is something different about the person, it doesn't mean they are crazy or unwell. Calling it a mutation is also short-sighted as that would imply that it's a solely genetic cause, which I doubt it is.

In terms of how you should 'treat' and treat people who are transgender, it's really quite simple.
Treat them as a normal human being, with respect and dignity and don't obsess over the fact that they are different from the norm. In terms of medical treatment, I would say reassignment (physical) is the proper route to take (If that is what they wish) but that doesn't necessarily make it a disorder.

Transgenderism IS linked to mental illness, but that does not, one more time for emphasis DOES NOT MEAN that it is a mental illness.

I hope this all makes sense, feel free to challenge or discuss any of it.

But do me a favour, if it's going to be over semantics then don't. That's a dead end and is simply an argument for the sake of an argument rather than a discussion over the topic ._.

Spoiler

Happy now meta?

Verbatim · September 14, 2014, 06:32:21 PM

Quote from: RC5908 on September 14, 2014, 06:28:49 PM

You definitely implied that that was a proper insult. Is dumbcunt a proper insult too?

No I didn't. Holy batshit, you're a fucking imbecile...

A "proper" insult is one that isn't slander, like the pig rapist example that I gave.

The fact that I have to spam this topic with non-sequitur bullshit just to explain this simple shit to you retards is pathetic.

More Than Mortal · September 14, 2014, 06:33:28 PM

One more question.

Does transgenderism cause dysphoria, or does dysphoria cause transgenderism?

DAS B00T x2 · September 14, 2014, 06:34:18 PM

Quote from: Nuka on September 14, 2014, 06:23:10 PM

Quote from: Ossku on September 14, 2014, 06:14:45 PM
Wait...this hermaphrodite thing is real?

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat???
Yes, there are people that are born with characteristics from both sexes. The reason you generally don't hear about them is because their parents/doctor decides how they have to live before giving them the choice.

The choice is advised to be made on whichever organ is functional so it's not like they're deciding something cruel and selfishly, and there's never been a true hermaphrodite.

Mr. Psychologist · September 14, 2014, 06:35:30 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 14, 2014, 06:33:28 PM

One more question.

Does transgenderism cause dysphoria, or does dysphoria cause transgenderism?

Transgenderism would cause Dysphoria as far as I know <.<

Since you are born like that, and Dysphoria doesn't happen to everyone who is born like that >.>
I could be wrong though.

Cheat · September 14, 2014, 06:36:52 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on September 14, 2014, 06:32:21 PM

Quote from: RC5908 on September 14, 2014, 06:28:49 PM
You definitely implied that that was a proper insult. Is dumbcunt a proper insult too?
No I didn't. Holy batshit, you're a fucking imbecile...

A "proper" insult is one that isn't slander, like the pig rapist example that I gave.

The fact that I have to spam this topic with non-sequitur bullshit just to explain this simple shit to you retards is pathetic.

No insult would be the "proper" insult around these parts. Let's be civilized.

Verbatim · September 14, 2014, 06:38:58 PM

Quote from: Cheat on September 14, 2014, 06:36:52 PM

No insult would be the "proper" insult around these parts.

That's really my whole point. Insults are improper by nature, but "improper" does not mean "slanderous".

Slander should be considered worse than a vanilla "proper" insult.

Frankly, slanderous statements should beget vilification.

September 14, 2014, 06:44:24 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 14, 2014, 06:33:28 PM

One more question.

Does transgenderism cause dysphoria, or does dysphoria cause transgenderism?

I may be wrong, but I thought "transgender" referred to people who changed their sex. So the dysphoria (thinking that you're a different sex to begin with) would lead to the transgenderism.

Mr. Psychologist · September 14, 2014, 06:46:40 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on September 14, 2014, 06:44:24 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 14, 2014, 06:33:28 PM
One more question.

Does transgenderism cause dysphoria, or does dysphoria cause transgenderism?
I may be wrong, but I thought "transgender" referred to people who changed their sex. So the dysphoria (thinking that you're a different sex to begin with) would lead to the transgenderism.

It is generally used that way, but it doesn't solely refer to those who have had reassignment surgery.
Transgenderism is something that you are 'born with' in the same manner as homosexuality, dysphoria is the term for the mental disorder that arises from the conflict between mind and body.

More Than Mortal · September 14, 2014, 06:47:11 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on September 14, 2014, 06:44:24 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 14, 2014, 06:33:28 PM
One more question.

Does transgenderism cause dysphoria, or does dysphoria cause transgenderism?
I may be wrong, but I thought "transgender" referred to people who changed their sex. So the dysphoria (thinking that you're a different sex to begin with) would lead to the transgenderism.

Transgenderism is merely the identification with a gender not consistent with one's assigned sex.

Reciffo_Smmoc · September 14, 2014, 06:47:46 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

September 14, 2014, 06:48:42 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 14, 2014, 06:47:11 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on September 14, 2014, 06:44:24 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 14, 2014, 06:33:28 PM
One more question.

Does transgenderism cause dysphoria, or does dysphoria cause transgenderism?
I may be wrong, but I thought "transgender" referred to people who changed their sex. So the dysphoria (thinking that you're a different sex to begin with) would lead to the transgenderism.
Transgenderism is merely the identification with a gender not consistent with one's assigned sex.

So transgenderism is gender dysphoria, with that definition.

Verbatim · September 14, 2014, 06:48:59 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on September 14, 2014, 06:44:24 PM

I may be wrong, but I thought "transgender" referred to people who changed their sex.

See, to me, that doesn't make any sense.

A change of sex should be called transexual. Which it is.

Verbatim · September 14, 2014, 06:50:41 PM

Quote from: Weed Commando on September 14, 2014, 06:47:46 PM

Oh wow, a fedora joke. Who else is impressed?

September 14, 2014, 06:51:16 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on September 14, 2014, 06:48:59 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on September 14, 2014, 06:44:24 PM
I may be wrong, but I thought "transgender" referred to people who changed their sex.
See, to me, that doesn't make any sense.

A change of sex should be called transexual. Which it is.

Again, semantics. We both know what we're talking about, so why do you keep whining about the exact word used?

DAS B00T x2 · September 14, 2014, 06:53:00 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on September 14, 2014, 06:48:42 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 14, 2014, 06:47:11 PM
Quote from: SecondClass on September 14, 2014, 06:44:24 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 14, 2014, 06:33:28 PM
One more question.

Does transgenderism cause dysphoria, or does dysphoria cause transgenderism?
I may be wrong, but I thought "transgender" referred to people who changed their sex. So the dysphoria (thinking that you're a different sex to begin with) would lead to the transgenderism.
Transgenderism is merely the identification with a gender not consistent with one's assigned sex.
So transgenderism is gender dysphoria, with that definition.

GD is dependent on stress and other mental factors being present, I believe, while transgenderism is just always a thing.

Verbatim · September 14, 2014, 06:53:18 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on September 14, 2014, 06:51:16 PM

Again, semantics. We both know what we're talking about, so why do you keep whining about the exact word used?

Well gee, you're talking about what words are used to refer to people, and then when someone offers a suggestion, you think they're arguing semantics.

"Hey mommy, what's that thing?"
"It's a lollipop, dearie!"
"Wow. Semantics, much? What a bitch."

More Than Mortal · September 14, 2014, 06:53:31 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on September 14, 2014, 06:48:59 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on September 14, 2014, 06:44:24 PM
I may be wrong, but I thought "transgender" referred to people who changed their sex.
See, to me, that doesn't make any sense.

A change of sex should be called transexual. Which it is.

Transsexualism has the same definition as being transgender.

Mr. Psychologist · September 14, 2014, 06:53:33 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on September 14, 2014, 06:48:59 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on September 14, 2014, 06:44:24 PM
I may be wrong, but I thought "transgender" referred to people who changed their sex.
See, to me, that doesn't make any sense.

A change of sex should be called transexual. Which it is.

Indeed it is, but the person would be referred to as transgender because they have altered their gender (Say from male to female) and a part of this process is to alter their biological sex to match their 'new' outward gender which would also be their 'true' gender as it is the one that their mind aligns with.

I suspect that sounds as convoluted as it's possible to get but maybe it makes sense >.>

Verbatim · September 14, 2014, 06:54:17 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 14, 2014, 06:53:31 PM

Transsexualism has the same definition as being transgender.

Stupid.

Mr. Psychologist · September 14, 2014, 06:55:12 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on September 14, 2014, 06:54:17 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 14, 2014, 06:53:31 PM
Transsexualism has the same definition as being transgender.
Stupid.

Perhaps, but the english language is full of crap like that <.<

More Than Mortal · September 14, 2014, 06:56:15 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on September 14, 2014, 06:54:17 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 14, 2014, 06:53:31 PM
Transsexualism has the same definition as being transgender.
Stupid.

Quote

Transgender is the state of one's gender identity or gender expression not matching one's assigned sex.

Quote

Transsexualism is when an individual identifies with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with their assigned sex.