So apparently his memo was a response to a diversity meeting google held where they asked for responses?

I think it's pretty fucked that google wouldn't allow criticism of their policy by their employees. If they disagree with the criticism they receive, then refute the points it makes. Allow everyone to put forth their ideas and let them duke it out intellectually to see which ideas can endure. Firing the guy was truly pathetic to me, regardless of how many people complained about the memo. Especially if it really was written as a response to a meeting in which they asked for responses.

Quote from: Aether on August 14, 2017, 11:41:00 AM

So apparently his memo was a response to a diversity meeting google held where they asked for responses?

I think it's pretty fucked that google wouldn't allow criticism of their policy by their employees. If they disagree with the criticism they receive, then refute the points it makes. Allow everyone to put forth their ideas and let them duke it out intellectually to see which ideas can endure. Firing the guy was truly pathetic to me, regardless of how many people complained about the memo. Especially if it really was written as a response to a meeting in which they asked for responses.

It wasn't his opinions. It was him posting them in a full company forum. It's the equivalent of emailing everyone in the company.

Which is still absolutely pathetic and appalling to me. Don't agree with the man? Have an honest discussion about his ideas.

And sorry, I don't buy that his opinion wasn't a factor either. If the memo he wrote detailed an opinion that was more agreeable with the people that complained and those who decided to fire him, then I suspect that he wouldn't have been fired at all.

If the memo he wrote detailed an opinion that was more agreeable with the people that complained and those who decided to fire him, then I suspect that he wouldn't have been fired at all.

Publicly arguing with your superiors is inappropriate in any work setting, and the guy demonstrated his own idiocy by writing about debunked gender science.

Quote from: Aether on August 25, 2017, 03:41:42 PM

If the memo he wrote detailed an opinion that was more agreeable with the people that complained and those who decided to fire him, then I suspect that he wouldn't have been fired at all.

Publicly arguing with your superiors is inappropriate in any work setting, and the guy demonstrated his own idiocy by writing about debunked gender science.

Is it debunked? Can I get sources? I've seen multiple psychologists explain that his points on gender differences were based on legitimate studies.

I'm very open to seeing any studies that refute them.

Quote from: Turkey on August 25, 2017, 10:49:27 PM

Quote from: Aether on August 25, 2017, 03:41:42 PM

If the memo he wrote detailed an opinion that was more agreeable with the people that complained and those who decided to fire him, then I suspect that he wouldn't have been fired at all.

Publicly arguing with your superiors is inappropriate in any work setting, and the guy demonstrated his own idiocy by writing about debunked gender science.

Is it debunked? Can I get sources? I've seen multiple psychologists explain that his points on gender differences were based on legitimate studies.

I'm very open to seeing any studies that refute them.

Like many amateurs, he seems to have interpreted results from scientific papers to suit his opinions. But you're missing the point that it's universally frowned upon to disagree with management in a public forum like he did -- what he said doesn't matter at all.

https://www.google.com/search?q=google+memo+debunked&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS749US749&oq=google+memo+debunked&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.5641j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Quote from: Aether on August 25, 2017, 10:54:51 PM

Quote from: Turkey on August 25, 2017, 10:49:27 PM

Quote from: Aether on August 25, 2017, 03:41:42 PM

If the memo he wrote detailed an opinion that was more agreeable with the people that complained and those who decided to fire him, then I suspect that he wouldn't have been fired at all.

Publicly arguing with your superiors is inappropriate in any work setting, and the guy demonstrated his own idiocy by writing about debunked gender science.

Is it debunked? Can I get sources? I've seen multiple psychologists explain that his points on gender differences were based on legitimate studies.

I'm very open to seeing any studies that refute them.

Like many amateurs, he seems to have interpreted results from scientific papers to suit his opinions. But you're missing the point that it's universally frowned upon to disagree with management in a public forum like he did -- what he said doesn't matter at all.

https://www.google.com/search?q=google+memo+debunked&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS749US749&oq=google+memo+debunked&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.5641j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Thanks for the source, will read it in a bit. EDIT: Wait . that's just a google search. . . I was hoping for direct source to scientific studies. smh I'll just have to find any on my own.

As for my missing the point. No, I understand the point you and Charlie are making perfectly well. I just don't agree with their actions at all. Refer to my post above on the matter.

Quote from: Aether on August 25, 2017, 03:41:42 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on August 25, 2017, 02:08:16 PM

Quote from: Aether on August 14, 2017, 11:41:00 AM

So apparently his memo was a response to a diversity meeting google held where they asked for responses?

I think it's pretty fucked that google wouldn't allow criticism of their policy by their employees. If they disagree with the criticism they receive, then refute the points it makes. Allow everyone to put forth their ideas and let them duke it out intellectually to see which ideas can endure. Firing the guy was truly pathetic to me, regardless of how many people complained about the memo. Especially if it really was written as a response to a meeting in which they asked for responses.

It wasn't his opinions. It was him posting them in a full company forum. It's the equivalent of emailing everyone in the company.

Which is still absolutely pathetic and appalling to me. Don't agree with the man? Have an honest discussion about his ideas.

And sorry, I don't buy that his opinion wasn't a factor either. If the memo he wrote detailed an opinion that was more agreeable with the people that complained and those who decided to fire him, then I suspect that he wouldn't have been fired at all.

That's not how corporate culture works. It doesn't matter what you disagree with, you don't blast the whole company with your opinion.

    While it`s not how corporate culture works, it`s how engineering-programing culture works and Google wouldn`t get this big without it. Engineering-programing culture propagands openness, sharing ideas and helping each other on every level. Even such things like position of tables and working on laptops for more comfortabe communication between employers.
     This memo is just a symptom of diseace and it would be written sooner or later anyway. This diseace exists because people in top of company hierarchy gave priority to corporate culture over engineering culture, because lack of communication between team leaders and engineers. And it`s bad for Google.

If Google didn't punish him, they would be accused of silently giving consent to his opinion. Regardless of what he said, the safest course of action is to just fire him.

So challenging his points in an open discussion was not an option at all? Is a representative of Google explicitly stating that they do not agree with or endorse his memo not evidence enough that they actually do not agree with or endorse his memo? You're telling me that firing him was the only way for Google to express that they did not agree with or endorse him?

I am absolutely not fond of the idea that an employee is not allowed to openly criticize the company/corporation they work for, and I do not like the precedent that is set by firing those who do openly criticize their employer.

Quote from: Aether on August 26, 2017, 12:00:04 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on August 25, 2017, 11:27:33 PM

If Google didn't punish him, they would be accused of silently giving consent to his opinion. Regardless of what he said, the safest course of action is to just fire him.

So challenging his points in an open discussion was not an option at all? Is a representative of Google explicitly stating that they do not agree with or endorse his memo not evidence enough that they actually do not agree with or endorse his memo? You're telling me that firing him was the only way for Google to express that they did not agree with or endorse him?

I am absolutely not fond of the idea that an employee is not allowed to openly criticize the company/corporation they work for, and I do not like the precedent that is set by firing those who do openly criticize their employer.

There are ways to criticize your employer besides an open forum.

Of course there are. I still think an employee should absolutely be able to do so if they are reasonable and constructive.

Quote from: Aether on August 26, 2017, 12:36:08 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on August 26, 2017, 12:20:32 AM

Quote from: Aether on August 26, 2017, 12:00:04 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on August 25, 2017, 11:27:33 PM

If Google didn't punish him, they would be accused of silently giving consent to his opinion. Regardless of what he said, the safest course of action is to just fire him.

So challenging his points in an open discussion was not an option at all? Is a representative of Google explicitly stating that they do not agree with or endorse his memo not evidence enough that they actually do not agree with or endorse his memo? You're telling me that firing him was the only way for Google to express that they did not agree with or endorse him?

I am absolutely not fond of the idea that an employee is not allowed to openly criticize the company/corporation they work for, and I do not like the precedent that is set by firing those who do openly criticize their employer.

There are ways to criticize your employer besides an open forum.

Of course there are. I still think an employee should absolutely be able to do so if they are reasonable and constructive.

Is posting this to a company open forum either reasonable or constructive?

I don't believe it to be unreasonable, and I do think it's constructive. Ideas need to be discussed and challenged to see if they have any merit and can withstand scrutiny. An open forum for the entity those ideas are addressed to is a place perfectly suited for that discussion seeing as how it's a forum specifically for those who are employed by that entity and who would be affected by any changes proposed by those ideas.

Employees should be allowed a space where they can discuss the policies and values of the company/corporation they work for, and as long as they are reasonable and civil in their discussion, they should have no fear of losing their job. And I don't mean a space as in just some conference or meeting held periodically, although those are perfectly fine to have. I mean a space exactly like an open forum where the discussion can be continuous and ongoing.

Quote from: Aether on August 26, 2017, 12:00:04 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on August 25, 2017, 11:27:33 PM

If Google didn't punish him, they would be accused of silently giving consent to his opinion. Regardless of what he said, the safest course of action is to just fire him.

So challenging his points in an open discussion was not an option at all? Is a representative of Google explicitly stating that they do not agree with or endorse his memo not evidence enough that they actually do not agree with or endorse his memo? You're telling me that firing him was the only way for Google to express that they did not agree with or endorse him?

I am absolutely not fond of the idea that an employee is not allowed to openly criticize the company/corporation they work for, and I do not like the precedent that is set by firing those who do openly criticize their employer.

You're forgetting the part where he (unintentionally) created a PR nightmare for Google and made cooperation with many of his coworkers difficult to impossible in practice.

The logic behind their decision makes perfect sense to me, it's just that the PR nightmare they faced isn't a factor for me in regards to my respect for them. Google was in a position where they were damned if they did or damned if they didn't. They chose not to uphold the values of freedom of expression and fire an employee for openly speaking their mind, and for that they get no respect from me.

Quote from: Aether on August 26, 2017, 03:39:18 PM

Quote from: Flee on August 26, 2017, 09:46:42 AM

Quote from: Aether on August 26, 2017, 12:00:04 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on August 25, 2017, 11:27:33 PM

If Google didn't punish him, they would be accused of silently giving consent to his opinion. Regardless of what he said, the safest course of action is to just fire him.

So challenging his points in an open discussion was not an option at all? Is a representative of Google explicitly stating that they do not agree with or endorse his memo not evidence enough that they actually do not agree with or endorse his memo? You're telling me that firing him was the only way for Google to express that they did not agree with or endorse him?

I am absolutely not fond of the idea that an employee is not allowed to openly criticize the company/corporation they work for, and I do not like the precedent that is set by firing those who do openly criticize their employer.

You're forgetting the part where he (unintentionally) created a PR nightmare for Google and made cooperation with many of his coworkers difficult to impossible in practice.

The logic behind their decision makes perfect sense to me, it's just that the PR nightmare they faced isn't a factor for me in regards to my respect for them. Google was in a position where they were damned if they did or damned if they didn't. They chose not to uphold the values of freedom of expression and fire an employee for openly speaking their mind, and for that they get no respect from me.

get a life holy shit do you actually think google cares about your opinion they're a huge fucking company with an image to uphold and people investing in their company do you honestly think that for one second they will allow some guy using debunked studies to insult the women in his company and every other company to just go unpunished and completely ruin themselves for one guy who's a fucking idiot anyways

Simmer down there bub. Why the fuck would I think they care? I'm just discussing what I think because that's what this thread is for, is it not?

And christ how sensitive do you have to be to consider what was said in that memo an insult? I long for the day when people realize they don't have to take offense to everything they disagree with.

shut your Buddha mayatero ass up for real

I'm also discussing how you're a dumbass for thinking google is not gonna fire some guy acting like an idiot in the workplace. It's an insult because it's pseudoscience. If he was actually posting facts there might be some validity in your argument (and his), but there isn't. He acted unprofessionally, insulted his coworkers, and tarnished Google's name. What the fuck did you think was gonna happen?

When did I ever say I thought they weren't going to fire him? I haven't even implied that I thought they weren't going to fire him. I explicitly only said that I don't respect their decision. I think you should reread what I've posted because your perception of it seems to be awfully skewed. You seem to feel pretty strongly about the guy and google's decision. It's fine if you don't agree with me, but don't let your feelings on the matter get in the way of understanding what I'm actually saying.

As for his points being pseudoscience, I have seen comments from legitimate psychologists saying that his points were based on actual research and that, essentially, even though there is no consensus within the field of psychology as to whether or not that research is correct and that more research needs to be done on the subject, the man at least based his ideas on something tangible and real (that being the studies conducted in that research) and didn't just conjure these points out of thin air.

If the guy is wrong, then he's wrong, and people should refute his ideas with research that shows the contrary to that which he's basing his points on. Educate him on why he's wrong.

Acting like he's some kind of bigot, making false claims about his memo being some kind of 'anti-diversity' memo even though it is specifically talking about ways in which he thinks google can still try to diversify their workforce without discriminating against certain people, It's entirely disingenuous of people to portray him in that way. Even if what he said was wrong, he was civil and reasonable in his arguments, he based those arguments on actual research, and constructively expressed methods that he thought could help google continue to diversify its workforce without discriminating against certain people. And despite that, he was still fired, which google has the right to do, ergo I cannot respect their decision even though I understand the logic behind it perfectly well.

If my opinion makes you angry or you think that I'm an idiot then so be it, I don't care whether or not you're pleased with me or what I think. Just at least understand my opinion before you decide that I am one.

And why do you keep trying to use 'buddha' as a pejorative? smh