Dark Souls DLC is fine to me. When you have a fully complete game, especially one that's supposed to be the last in the series (as with DKS3) paying 20 bucks for a true add-on to that game is worth it in my eyes.DLC like Destiny had on the other hand, which is basically just selling cut content, is a shit anti-consumer practice that needs to go extinct.
Quote from: Aether on July 03, 2018, 03:00:31 PMDark Souls DLC is fine to me. When you have a fully complete game, especially one that's supposed to be the last in the series (as with DKS3) paying 20 bucks for a true add-on to that game is worth it in my eyes.DLC like Destiny had on the other hand, which is basically just selling cut content, is a shit anti-consumer practice that needs to go extinct.so you think that DLC was worth 33% of the entire base game experience
Quote from: Verbatim on July 03, 2018, 03:04:53 PMQuote from: Aether on July 03, 2018, 03:00:31 PMDark Souls DLC is fine to me. When you have a fully complete game, especially one that's supposed to be the last in the series (as with DKS3) paying 20 bucks for a true add-on to that game is worth it in my eyes.DLC like Destiny had on the other hand, which is basically just selling cut content, is a shit anti-consumer practice that needs to go extinct.so you think that DLC was worth 33% of the entire base game experienceIt has to be good enough. I was fine with paying 20 bucks for The Ringed City DKS3 DLC because it was full of good content to me. Ashes of Ariandel was good too but was a bit short. I figured it would've been priced better at 15 bucks.
Quote from: challengerX on July 03, 2018, 02:37:01 PMSay I'm a game developer, why should I be obliged to create free content or otherwise make another gamethey aren't obliged toyou make it if you want toand if none of them ever want to because they know they won't make money off it anyway, then good, fuck themQuoteThe game is a complete product, DLC expansions are just that, extra content. lmaoIf a game has DLC, it seizes to be a complete game until it's installed. You can't have a completed game be more than complete. That doesn't make any sense. Completed means finished, it's done.QuoteAnd games may seem overpriced but the developers aren't exactly making a killing off of it, they only make a certain percentage. I don't careQuoteYou don't HAVE to buy anything.If you want to have a complete game, yes, you do.
Say I'm a game developer, why should I be obliged to create free content or otherwise make another game
The game is a complete product, DLC expansions are just that, extra content.
And games may seem overpriced but the developers aren't exactly making a killing off of it, they only make a certain percentage.
You don't HAVE to buy anything.
Quote from: Verbatim on July 03, 2018, 02:59:20 PMseizes
Quote from: Dietrich Six on July 03, 2018, 10:41:30 PMQuote from: Verbatim on July 03, 2018, 02:59:20 PMseizeswhat are you trying to point out hereoh, you think i'm confusing it with "ceases" because you're stupid and you don't realize that both terms work in this context
Quote from: Verbatim on July 03, 2018, 10:44:53 PMQuote from: Dietrich Six on July 03, 2018, 10:41:30 PMQuote from: Verbatim on July 03, 2018, 02:59:20 PMseizeswhat are you trying to point out hereoh, you think i'm confusing it with "ceases" because you're stupid and you don't realize that both terms work in this contextSeize and desist
Quote from: Dietrich Six on July 03, 2018, 10:47:43 PMQuote from: Verbatim on July 03, 2018, 10:44:53 PMQuote from: Dietrich Six on July 03, 2018, 10:41:30 PMQuote from: Verbatim on July 03, 2018, 02:59:20 PMseizeswhat are you trying to point out hereoh, you think i'm confusing it with "ceases" because you're stupid and you don't realize that both terms work in this contextSeize and desistit's called an eggcorn
I just see DLC like a dessert Do I still feel hungry after the main course? If not, cool. I've had my fill, I'm content. Do I want more? Okay, let's pay a bit extra.
The way I see it, games could be $75 brand new or I can skip the gun camoes and save $15.I usually wait for shit to go on sale anyway so I'm really don't pay full price for any games except the ones I know I'm going to love.
they aren't obliged toyou make it if you want toand if none of them ever want to because they know they won't make money off it anyway, then good, fuck them
lmaoIf a game has DLC, it seizes to be a complete game until it's installed. You can't have a completed game be more than complete. That doesn't make any sense. Completed means finished, it's done.
I don't care
If you want to have a complete game, yes, you do.
Fuck people who want to make money off something they created for you to enjoy? Why should they do it for free? Why are you dooming them to have to work somewhere else that they hate and not be able to make money off of games? Isn't this one of the things you hate the most about the world, about how (you think) you can't make a living off of writing? Why should DLC be free, apart from you basically saying you don't want to pay for it?
It's extra content. A cheeseburger is complete with meat and cheese. Ketchup, mustard, pickles, onions, peppers, and so on are extras.
You should care, because you're acting like developers are these greedy assholes who who just want to screw us out of our money for no reason when they're the ones getting the shit end of the stick on profits.
Nope. The game is complete at launch.
Yes, fuck them. They don't do it for free—the games are already $60, and I don't care how much of a tiny fraction they actually make off of game sales. If they don't make enough, they can work somewhere else. And they'll hate it, but that's life.
I don't want to make a living off of writing. I hate that I live in a world where you must make a living to begin with. People should just be able to live, period, and do whatever they want. That's not how it works. In any case, I care more about the consumer. It pisses me off to see people get practically stolen from when they buy shit products, because they're the people who are actually working real jobs, doing real things.
Making video games is not something we need, so I don't view it as a real career. I wouldn't view my writing career as a real career, either, especially since I wouldn't be doing it for the money. I'd be doing it for the art, and that's the only reason any artist should ever want to make anything.
Says who? Why can't I say you're wrong about that? Maybe a cheeseburger DOES need to have all of those things.Either way, video games and food are different.
Fucking sucks ass for them, then. I'm against tipping for the same exact reason, too. Maybe they should get paid more in general. Why the fuck do honest regular working people have to pick up the tab for them? That's bullshit.
False, by definition of the word.
I'm not going to have a discussion with you when you're just playing devil's advocate. People that believe this are dumbasses. Everybody deserves to be able to make a living, THAT'S life.
How is the consumer being screwed? If it's good DLC that's priced fairly, what's the problem? "Preying" on dumbass people who buy gun skins is a myth and the only people to blame are the consumers. Why shouldn't people make money off of stupidity?
We absolutely do need entertainment. That's how life works. There's nothing wrong with being passionate about what you do and wanting to make money, too. It's a product, why should it be exempt from having monetary value because it's art?
Because a cheeseburger is just that, meat, cheese, and buns. Pickles are basically DLC.
Wow ok Tarantino. Hahaha come on dude that's not even the point. I agree devs should make more profits but it has nothing to do with DLC being free or not, because the profit margins aren't all that different.
So a game on launch day is incomplete even if DLC hasn't been announced?
Dude it's a fucking video game about a magic zombie jailbreak. It's not that serious.
Only I'm going a step further than you and saying that the concept of a "living" shouldn't exist. The fact that it does it the real problem.
If you want to step into the world of art, don't come in with dollar signs in your eyes. Otherwise, what you're making barely qualifies as art, and there's absolutely no chance of me ever supporting anything you do or create. And if I do, it was because I was duped, because that's the game developers have to play in our capitalist system.
Because it's immoral as fuck. You can't just take advantage of people like that and call yourself a good, honest person who deserves to make money doing what he loves.
Name a good DLC that is priced fairly. None exist, only what you thought was worth it. It probably wasn't, especially if it was more than $5.
Because it shouldn't be your primary focus. It shouldn't even be your secondary focus. If an artist were told that he could never make money off of his art again, a true artist wouldn't be discouraged by that. He'd continue making art, because that's what he does.
Most game developers would quit, and those who would quit are the ones I don't want in the industry anyway. And if the industry would die without those people, then so be it. Fuck it all, let's just build a new industry off of independent game developers and hobbyists. I've been looking into playing some indie games anyway.
You just repeated yourself. I don't buy the analogy, come up with something different. Food and video games are way too different, because people are going to have different ideas of what they want to have on their cheeseburger.If I want a plain cheeseburger, then the plain cheeseburger I get is what I paid for. That's the completed product. If they add extra shit I don't want, then I'm returning it. Likewise, if I actually DO want extra shit, and they forget the pickles or whatever the fuck, then they sold me an incomplete product.
When I buy a game, I'm under the impression that I'm going to be able to play the entire experience. And to me, if DLC doesn't come with, then it's not complete. How could it be? There's several hours worth of content that I'm missing out on, that I can't play, unless I pay extra. That's so fucking stupid.
Where do you draw the line? There has to be a point where you realize the game isn't complete without the DLC.
I draw the line at DLC, because any other line you draw is going to be completely arbitrary and based on personal whim. What's so bad about releasing a complete game with no DLC? What's wrong with that? Why can't they just do that? Why do they need more money out of me?
It's the point for me, I'm not terribly interested in whatever your point is honestly. Find another fucking job if you don't think you're getting paid enough, because I'm not paying you extra. I shouldn't have to, so I never fucking will, from the day I posted that forward. And if people are smart, they'll follow suit.
Correct, and that's been the model for the past twelve-odd years. Games stopped being completed the moment the first ever DLC was created.
Remember when Oblivion's horse armor came out, and everyone hated it and thought it was the stupidest fucking waste of money ever? That's been normalized. People eat that shit up, now. It's not just accepted, but highly encouraged.
No, the golden years were when you could buy a game for the PS2 and you'd never have to pay anything extra for it. A quick $50 payment for some game, like Ratchet & Clank, and you had to pay for fuck else. And you had the entire game, right there in your hands. You never had to worry about playing anything else, except for sequels, but if you liked the game enough, you're gonna buy the next one anyway. And you know it's gonna be worth it, because it's a whole new game.Now everything is fucked. You're lucky if you're not spending $100 on a game you're into just to make sure you're not missing any of the extra content. Absolutely unacceptable.
This utopia you're dreaming of is never going to exist, and if it does it'll be long after we're dead. It's pretty tiresome that you rely on this and use it as a crutch in very argument.
I don't understand why art and money are mutually exclusive to you and you're acting like money is disgusting and below art. I guarantee you all the great artists who died poor and have their art selling for millions in snooty art galleries would've preferred to have had that money while they were alive. The term "starving artist" isn't a badge of honor, it's a criticism of a deep flaw within our society where we don't value art enough and don't encourage it so artists can be successful and also make a living.
A lot of these decisions to sell gun skins etc aren't made by the people who actually even make the game most of the time, it's usually the suits around who say "hey this is making money we should do it too".
There's plenty of DLC that's worth it. Way back to the first Ghost Recon, Desert Storm and Island Thunder were true expansions packs with like 8+ mission campaigns and new multiplayer maps with new weapons. Or just recently Nioh, which has 3 great expansion packs with a ton of work put into them which I might add were free for those of us who bought it on Steam. But that's the developer's choice, or sometimes it's out of their hands. Like Bungie who got forced by Microsoft to make ODST into another (half ass) game when it would've been awesome as DLC.
Or maybe realizing he'd starve to death would have to put his artistic talents to the side while he does something else for money. Of course artists still want to create art even if they won't get paid, the point is they should be.
"BURN EVERYTHING DOWN BECAUSE DLC IS ABUSED SOMETIMES"
Yeah no offense to indie developers because they make great games on a limited budget, but I like big budget games.
I don't see why the video game industry should be destroyed and reduced to sidescrollers because you now have an unfounded hatred for DLC. I mean, by this logic, all games should be free too. In which case nobody would ever make money so it'd be like 10 years until a game comes out and it'd drive the industry back decades. There'd be no new consoles, no controllers, no innovation of any kind.
So we agree. The video game at launch is simply a cheeseburger, pickles cost extra. Some places give you pickles for free, but that's up to them. The past of me is about dietary shit, I don't want a whole new industry anyway. And you had the entire cheeseburger for free.
It's content they worked on after completing the game. It doesn't come included because it is EXTRA CONTENT.
There's no line to draw. It's literally extra content. It's like saying the cheese pizza you ordered should have every topping on it for free. It cost the pizza place money to stock pepperoni, why the hell should they give it to you for free?
YOU are the one drawing arbitrary lines based on a whim hahaha what the fuck is this.
They want more money and there's nothing wrong with that.
They don't make that much more profit on DLC.
You don't have to buy DLC, you do have to tip unless you're an insane asshole. Not tipping a waiter isn't gonna change the world and have their boss start paying them more. That's ridiculous. Do you have any idea how much that wouldn't work? Like at all?
Wrong. DLC is extra content, you don't need to buy it. If you can't afford it, tough shit that's life.
I couldn't buy almost any DLC for years, you don't see me complaining. You don't see me saying the entire industry should bend and warp to my every complaint and want.
What the fuck? Did you not see the backlash the Fallout 4 Creator Club got and how people were saying it's Oblivion horse armor all over again?
There is literally nothing wrong with DLC. Unless it's a shady developer that puts good ideas on pause to be sold as DLC later
I never feel like I NEED DLC for any game I own. There's like 4 DLC expansions for ARMA 3 I don't have and they're overpriced garbage. I could make better missions myself in a few hours on the editor or even download some for free on the Workshop.
If you see DLC like that, simply don't buy it and don't show any support for it, or buy it on sale.
That's the only way to make sure we get good DLC that's priced fairly. This is simple shit, I shouldn't have to tell you this. You can't blame all DLC because some devs are greedy.
My perfect utopia is never going to exist, which gives us a free pass to be greedy, avaricious scum.
It's a deep flaw in society that should not be the consumer's job to fix.
Oh my god, you're right. That makes it so much fucking better! I LOVE DLC now!
How many mission campaigns were in the base game of the first Ghost Recon?
Free DLC doesn't really count, obviously. It sucks that you only get it free on an inferior platform, though.
ODST being its own game was the right decision, only it should've been priced accordingly. The fact that games tend to be $59.99 across the board nowadays is completely fucking asinine.
But I shouldn't be the one doing it.
No, it's abused 99% of the time. You have to be so foolish to believe that the vast majority of game developers and publishers don't make plans for DLC very early into development. None of them are angels who would only think to add DLC after the game is already released and fairly successful. That's the real dream world.
So you're the problem. Maybe if games were less expensive to make these days, we wouldn't be in this position.
Sounds good to me. Games were better decades ago anyway.
What? Where do you eat where pickles cost extra? You have to specifically tell them not to add pickles if you don't want pickles. It doesn't make the burger cheaper. You're paying less for an incomplete burger, but if you don't like pickles, you don't like pickles.
This is why the analogy is fucking dumb and doesn't work. These are different things we're talking about. There's no parity between ordering food and buying a video game. It's two different worlds.
The game is not complete until you have all the DLC. You can't get MORE complete than complete. That's not how English or logic works.
great more shitty food analogies 😴You don't want every topping on a pizza, because that'll ruin the pizza.
Having every DLC package for a game won't ruin it. It'll COMPLETE it. You get a sense of completion—I have full access to EVERYTHING the game has to offer. It's complete. It's not more-than-complete, because there's no such thing as more-than-complete. It wasn't complete before you bought the DLC, and it lost "completed" status when they announced DLC after the game was released. The game that was once complete is now not complete anymore. Now you have to pay more.That's how this works.
It's not arbitrary at all, I've given numerous and detailed reasons for why I think the way I do, and you haven't been able to properly respond to anything so far. Just bad food analogies and simple quandaries that are easily answered with basic logic.
There's everything wrong with it. Fuck them for forcing it on us, and fuck us for taking it up the ass.
All the more reason not to fucking bother.
But I DO have to buy DLC if I want a complete experience.Let's say I get Nioh, and I get it on a superior console platform where none of the expansions are free. I beat the game and I thoroughly enjoy it, it's a 9/10 and one of my new favorite games. I then discover that there's DLC, and I have people like you saying "So you liked the game then? Are you gonna get the DLC now? The DLC is awesome, you should buy ALL of them. So are you gonna do it? Huh? Huh? Huh?"
It cheapens the experience. It's not complete anymore, knowing there's SO MUCH content that I'm missing out on that I'll never get to play because of developer greed. There is absolutely no justification for this whatsoever, when back in the day, you never had to worry about any of this. You could just unlock everything for free through gameplay, and the entire game was in your hands.
Remember unlocking shit? There was a time when you could unlock stuff in video games, for free, through gameplay. I don't know if it's because you're too young to remember, but that's how video games were. It was a better time, and I'll destroy the current state of the game industry to go back to that.
And I never said I don't tip. It's a fucking FACT that I shouldn't have to, and I'll scream it from the mountaintops. But I just don't go to restaurants. I mean, obviously. Where would I eat? It shouldn't be my fucking job to pay you for the work you do. I'm sorry. So I'm never ever going to do it.
Same thing with DLC for video games. I'm never buying it, you don't have to tell me not to. It's decided. Everyone should follow me on this if they're smart.
You were sold an incomplete product, tough shit that's life. Yeah okay, I guess I'll just take that sitting down.
You should be. You're a victim, and I sympathize with you.
Because people are FUCKING MORONS who don't realize that this is all their fault. It's their doing. If they didn't support horse armor DLC twelve years ago, we wouldn't be here right now. No one is allowed to be upset except for me, because I saw the writing on the wall from the beginning.
Fallout 4's creator club wasn't horse armor "all over again." Horse armor is something we've not only endured, not only accepted, but normalized. The fact that anyone could ever be pissed about anything DLC-related these days is pigshit because that's what the ENTIRE INDUSTRY revolves around these days, and it's our fault for causing it.
Fuck anyone who got upset at that who doesn't also hate the entire industry like I do, since the very beginning.
Literally all of them.
But you DO need them, if you want to complete the game.
There are fighting games that have you pay for characters. You have to pay to have a full roster of playable characters. Are you seriously going to tell me that it's possible to have a complete fighting game if you don't have every fighter available to you?
Why are you giving me advice? Did this conversation not already start with me saying that I'm never buying DLC again? Why do you feel the need to tell me this?
I can and I will, because they all are and I'd like it if they starved and died.
No, it's that you act like the world is either complete trash or it has to be a utopia.
Agreed, devs should have much larger profit margins.
My point being you're blaming the devs when it's usually Activision and Microsoft pushing this shit.
QuoteHow many mission campaigns were in the base game of the first Ghost Recon?15 I think
Who the hell is gonna pay them, then? Are they supposed to just get money for free? They have to make and sell their product, that's how it works.
So developers have found a way to make more money because game sales really don't make them that much. How horrible.
Except it takes a big budget to push the envelope.
You can make a great game for a few hundred bucks, but it's the same tired old 2D adventure. It gets old.
"I'm fine with thousands of people being out of work and a thriving industry dying because some price adjustments need to be made"
Except it's a complete game. A car is complete when it's built, seat warmers and Bluetooth capabilities are extras.
That's your opinion. Plenty of people like pizzas with a lot of toppings.
DLC is an extra.
But you still fail to refute even the most basic point I've made, that DLC's are extras and not necessary.
So you admit it isn't about greed.
Why would I pester you to buy the DLC if I know you can't afford it?
Back in the day we just probably would've never had the content.
wtf nigga we're the same age
You are paying for the work the chef does, the rent, the cost of upkeep, payroll, everything. That's what goes into pricing the food at a restaurant.
No it isn't smart. Don't buy bad DLC that's overpriced. Good DLC is a way for us to get more content they'll never make and put in the game before launch.
You act like you're being screwed out of something. You're not.
No, I shouldn't be, because that's childish behavior. I'm a victim of what lmao?
A lot of us saw this coming. There's just a lot of people who seem to have no problem with microtransactions.
I agree. But there's not really anything we can do.
There's no need to be an extremist.
Complete what? What is this obsession with completion?
No, that's bullshit. But it doesn't mean video games should be nuked.
I'm telling you to buy good DLC.
They're not, they're just trying to make some money like everybody else. Waiting until they can make another game (if they even get the go ahead and the funding) is ridiculous.
Anything less than utopia is trash, but that's not the point. You seem to think we're closer to that utopia than I do, when we're not. Close enough to be okay with being swindled and stolen from.
And games should either be less expensive to make, or developers should be pressured less to make expensive games. Fuck "pushing the envelope," the envelope hasn't been pushed since the '90s. Games fucking suck today. DLC is only a small part of the problem.
Delightful, so fuck Activision and Microsoft for pushing this shit. Nothing else changes.
And how much did they cost you?
The publisher, fucking obviously. It's not ever going to happen, but it's what needs to happen regardless.
Extremely horrible. I'll never support it again, and fuck anyone who does.
No it doesn't, not at all. The most biggest envelope pushers in the industry are indies and Nintendo. No one else has ever pushed the envelope. We've, by and large, been getting the same shit since the mid-2000s. Hardly anyone is innovating anymore in the AAA industry.
Not if your IQ is high enough
Who's to say a car is complete without those things? Cup holders were considered a cushy luxury at one point. Now, if a new car doesn't have any cup holders, it's considered a cheap piece of shit. Incomplete.
Bad analogy, again. It's not a complete game without the DLC. I'll never get the complete Dark Souls experience unless I buy the DLC, and that pisses me the fuck off.
I didn't say "a lot" of toppings, I said EVERY topping. No one realistically does this, and this is why this is a shitty analogy too. It's not a logical equivalent, because there's NO ONE who would be displeased with having all DLC available to them.
If you don't like pineapple, you don't put it on your pizza. If it's on your pizza, you return it.
If you don't like a DLC, but you still have it because you bought the GOTY edition, you don't have to access it.
An extra that makes the game incomplete without it.
I'm going to design a game halfway, sell it to you for $60, and then sell you the other half for $30. And you'll buy it, apparently, because that's how gullible you apparently are. I'll even tell you that the DLC was designed well after the game was already """finished.""" And you'll take my word for it, because you're a genius.
I vigorously refuted it with great strength, and smashed it up with my huge, throbbing, vascular verbal musculature.They're 100% necessary, especially if you want to complete the game.
I never admitted that.
It's not that I can't afford it. It's that I shouldn't have to pay for it, even if I were wealthier than Bill Gates.
And that was better. Way better.
You're not acting like it. You're acting like a dumb Gen Z-er who never knew how much better things used to be.
I'm not talking about the pricing of the food. I'm talking about tipping.
How the fuck am I supposed to know what's good or bad until I pay for it and play it first? You realize that's fucking impossible, right? You can look up reviews and ask your friends and try to use your best judgment, but sometimes, that's just not good enough. You could be missing out on the best gaming experience of your life, and I'll never be able to experience it because I'm not willing to pay extra for content that should already be in the goddamn game itself.
I textbook am.
Extortion, and you should be more pissed about it than me, because you've paid for more DLC garbage.
Do what I do. I don't expect to change anything, but I'm not going to sit quietly and just accept this practice. Ever. I'm going to bitch and piss and moan for the rest of my life about it if I have to, and I'll be happy doing it. It's my right.
People like you are why I have to be extreme. If no one else sees it your way, you have to be extreme. That's the only way the meme can truly spread.
It's an axiomatic truth, there's no proof required. Extra content that must be paid extra for is basically extortion. There's literally no good or acceptable way to go about it.
It's not an obsession, it's me wanting exactly what the fuck I paid for. A complete game, with ALL of its content available to me. If I paid $60, I want $60 worth of content. Period.
No game on the market in the last twelve years has been worth $60. Not a single goddamn one, and you're a moron if you think otherwise. Taking DLC into account might have actually made some games worth that much, but when you buy DLC, you no longer just paid $60. You paid $70, or $80, or $100—all for content that only really amounts to $60 on a good day.
Most games aren't worth $10 even with all the DLC. If you pay more, you are wasting your money.
Why is that bullshit? I'm not entitled to all the game's content, apparently. You're backpedaling.Why shouldn't I be nickled and dimed over every little possible thing in the game? I don't HAVE to buy it, after all.It doesn't make the game incomplete, after all. Right? Right?
I can't know if it's good unless I buy it and try it myself. That's the fucking trick. It's not like when I buy ten apples, and I receive exactly ten apples, so I couldn't possibly be dissatisfied. A game's quality is a lot more nuanced than that.
Why is it ridiculous? I don't want DLC, I want full games. That's all I want for the rest of time.
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