Phantom Menace was okay if you treat it as Obi-Wan's story. I think the biggest problem was that it didn't have a central antagonist (yeah you see Darth Sidious a few times, but he doesn't really carry anything in terms of the movie), meaning you don't get the kind of tight focus that it really needed. It was much better paced, even if it was layered in cheese and Jar Jar (who was pretty bad comic relief even by SW standards).I'd rather have a cheesy movie than one that I remember for being forgettable/memorable for a lot of bad things.
Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 18, 2015, 11:39:15 PMPhantom Menace was okay if you treat it as Obi-Wan's story. I think the biggest problem was that it didn't have a central antagonist (yeah you see Darth Sidious a few times, but he doesn't really carry anything in terms of the movie), meaning you don't get the kind of tight focus that it really needed. It was much better paced, even if it was layered in cheese and Jar Jar (who was pretty bad comic relief even by SW standards).I'd rather have a cheesy movie than one that I remember for being forgettable/memorable for a lot of bad things.Fuck you Jar Jar was amazing.
No, C-3P0 was the C-3P0 of the movie--Jar Jar was his own character, and he was funny.
also the trade federation was pretty explicitly palpatine's arm-up, and could be described as the antagonist
Quote from: Verbatim on October 18, 2015, 11:48:53 PMNo, C-3P0 was the C-3P0 of the movie--Jar Jar was his own character, and he was funny.He was? I didn't laugh at all.
Quote from: Verbatim on October 18, 2015, 11:42:53 PMalso the trade federation was pretty explicitly palpatine's arm-up, and could be described as the antagonistThat's the problem. A corporation is kind of a big entity. You can give a name for something all you want, but we never got a face to use as reference. And if we did, if was more like a room full of people who don't look menacing or threatening. That's what made A New Hope good: Darth Vader was a clear and persistent antagonist from the first scene of the movie. The Empire is one of his weapons (what the Trade Federation should have been instead of THE big bad), but it was used to support his threat and not replace or rank equal to him.
Quote from: Avatar on October 18, 2015, 11:50:19 PMQuote from: Verbatim on October 18, 2015, 11:48:53 PMNo, C-3P0 was the C-3P0 of the movie--Jar Jar was his own character, and he was funny.He was? I didn't laugh at all.Neither did I. You don't need to laugh for things to be funny.
No, C-3P0 was the C-3P0 of the movie--Jar Jar was his own character, and he was funny.You can argue that the fact that they made it so Anakin was the one who invented C-3P0 all along was stupid and didn't make any sense, but ultimately, it's a series designed for kids and family, so who gives a fuck.
Except that I laugh and/or smile at funny stuff because I'm not a robot.Jar Jar was not funny. He was cringeworthy.
Quote from: Avatar on October 18, 2015, 11:55:40 PMExcept that I laugh and/or smile at funny stuff because I'm not a robot.Jar Jar was not funny. He was cringeworthy.If I'm watching a move alone, and I see a mildly amusing scene of Jar Jar eating food like a frog eats a fly, and I don't laugh, that doesn't make me a robot. Most people don't laugh at funny scenes in movies if they're alone--we're much more prone to laughter if we are with company.Besides, what was cringeworthy about him? Like, nothing.
Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 18, 2015, 11:51:23 PMQuote from: Verbatim on October 18, 2015, 11:42:53 PMalso the trade federation was pretty explicitly palpatine's arm-up, and could be described as the antagonistThat's the problem. A corporation is kind of a big entity. You can give a name for something all you want, but we never got a face to use as reference. And if we did, if was more like a room full of people who don't look menacing or threatening. That's what made A New Hope good: Darth Vader was a clear and persistent antagonist from the first scene of the movie. The Empire is one of his weapons (what the Trade Federation should have been instead of THE big bad), but it was used to support his threat and not replace or rank equal to him.No, I don't think you need a face, though. Just because it's the most common form of conflict (man vs. man) doesn't mean it's the only way.Man vs. nature, man vs. society, and man vs. corporation (in this case) have all been done and done well in the past--and I think TPM did it just as well. I've heard better complaints about the film than that.
And when all of your protagonists (the people you're supposed to relate to) all loathe him, why are we supposed to like him?
Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 18, 2015, 11:58:41 PMAnd when all of your protagonists (the people you're supposed to relate to) all loathe him, why are we supposed to like him? i can't believe you actually asked this questionhttp://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButtMonkeyhttp://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWoobiehttp://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FunnyBackgroundEventhttp://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FoilI like him because he's funny. He lightens up the mood and serves as a foil for some of the more annoyingly stoic characters like Qui-Gon. It's hard not to root for him during the Naboo siege, and when he gets promoted to general at the end for his actions, you feel happy for him. At least, you're supposed to. I did. Since he's generally looked at as a buffoon, even by everyone in-universe, it's heartwarming to see him finally being embraced by his people at the end.How you can not like that, I have no idea.
I didn't say that was my main complaint in any way. I'm just saying that it was a bit shoddy at times, which I'm sure you could agree with. It's not that it was ever bad, it just tried to be both too much like the OT while trying to be a completely new work; when you try to be two completely different things, you fail at both.The Trade Federation is supposed to be the Empire, but there's no Darth Vader. Jar Jar is the comic relief (otherwise C3-P0's role, even in the film too), but he doesn't manage to be anything more than that (which gets monotonous). Anakin and Obi-Wan are both Luke-ish characters, like they hadn't decided yet whether they wanted the Prequels to center around Anakin or not yet.None of it was bad, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't fall flat every time. Revenge of the Sith found the perfect balance between homage and innovating the story, and that's why it's tied for the #2 spot for me.
Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 19, 2015, 12:04:59 AMI didn't say that was my main complaint in any way. I'm just saying that it was a bit shoddy at times, which I'm sure you could agree with. It's not that it was ever bad, it just tried to be both too much like the OT while trying to be a completely new work; when you try to be two completely different things, you fail at both.The Trade Federation is supposed to be the Empire, but there's no Darth Vader. Jar Jar is the comic relief (otherwise C3-P0's role, even in the film too), but he doesn't manage to be anything more than that (which gets monotonous). Anakin and Obi-Wan are both Luke-ish characters, like they hadn't decided yet whether they wanted the Prequels to center around Anakin or not yet.None of it was bad, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't fall flat every time. Revenge of the Sith found the perfect balance between homage and innovating the story, and that's why it's tied for the #2 spot for me.It isn't my favorite in the series, either--I just think there's more prudent things to criticize. You mentioned the chase length in AotC? The podrace in Episode I was that times ten (even though it was spectacular display of special effects). And they threw in Jabba the Hutt in for no reason. The point is, Anakin won--the race probably didn't need to drag on for as long as it did.
See, there's a difference between being the butt of the joke (again, C3-P0 was nearly every time in the other films) and having pieces of the cast actually wish Qui-Gon hadn't saved him, or being annoyed with having to constantly treat him like a child.Nothing you just linked gives a reason for actual loathing. If anything, it reinforces the fact that C3-P0 did everything that Jar Jar did, but ten times better.
He's supposed to be funny, which he was. . . when I was seven, and ANY jokes would have been okay. Not because they're actually funny, but because I was seven. I can still watch the OT, RotS, and even parts of AotC where I might break a smile or giggle-- but humor was the one place that TPM totally blew it. Everything else was meh-tier at worst.
Quote from: Verbatim on October 19, 2015, 12:20:36 AMI'm not saying that you can't think he's funny. Click is one of my favorite movies of all time, and that's an Adam Sandler film. I'm not one to really judge people for what they like.I'm just explaining why I think that Jar Jar was a pointless character.
I agree the pod race went on too long. Admittedly, I don't remember it being that bad; but even saying it was, that doesn't mean it's the only thing I can talk about. The entire thing this dialogue erupted from was me saying that, despite its flaws, TPM is still much better than AotC.
I mean, the fact that you keep saying that there are larger criticisms does imply that you'd think I'm not complaining about the right things, but I digress.
Really, I'm realizing during this that I would put ROTJ equal to TPM on my list.
I've heard more salient arguments from other prequel haters (and I know you're not a prequel "hater"), and I haven't really seen you make any of those yet.
See, I never quite got this, either. You haven't had much good to say about TPM, so to put it on par with RotJ (my favorite of the prequels) is just mind-blowing to me.
It's amusing just how fucking backwards my opinions on the Star Wars movies are, compared to the general consensus. Not only do I prefer the prequels--I think the least popular of the OT is the best one, and I have never seen any legit criticisms of it.
Because I don't hate them, like you said. I'm only providing examples relative to why I organized the movies as I did; in other words I'm not trying to talk shit. I'm just saying why I didn't like AotC, and why I didn't like TPM as much as some others. Which was kind of the point of the thread, I thought, since it's asking about our personal rankings and all.
is there any proof that lucas did not originally intend for luke and leia to be siblings