Which is more important: The result of your actions or the actions you took?

MyNameIsCharlie · January 21, 2018, 01:35:53 AM

Ends vs means.

If you brutally kill 10 innocents to save 100, are you a hero or a maniac?

Dietrich Six · January 21, 2018, 01:38:47 AM

Hero, a net gain is a net gain.

Genghis Khan · January 21, 2018, 02:08:15 AM

Type 'Clinton body count' into Google.

MyNameIsCharlie · January 21, 2018, 02:21:31 AM

Quote from: Genghis Khan on January 21, 2018, 02:08:15 AM

Type 'Clinton body count' into Google.

So I can see true fake news?

Doctor Doom · January 21, 2018, 11:16:25 AM

Maniac. Not as much as you could have been, but still a maniac.

Elai · January 21, 2018, 12:57:05 PM

Depends on what the means are justifying.

Azumarill · January 21, 2018, 04:09:21 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on January 21, 2018, 02:21:31 AM

Quote from: Genghis Khan on January 21, 2018, 02:08:15 AM
Type 'Clinton body count' into Google.

So I can see true fake news?

i mean, let's be real, the clintons do have an absurd amount of blood on their hands. and they're corrupt elitist dickwads to boot. right wing morons hate them for the wrong reasons though.

DAS B00T x2 · January 21, 2018, 07:16:02 PM

Unless those people consented to being murdered without coercion you're pretty much on par with a serial rapist.

If the commune decides that personal existence is considered a form of property right then you've also violated the NAP and are now pretty much worse than a serial rapist.

Aether · January 21, 2018, 07:25:48 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on January 21, 2018, 01:38:47 AM

Hero, a net gain is a net gain.

That's not gaining anything, it's just losing 10 people instead of 100.

Assassin 11D7 · January 21, 2018, 08:58:58 PM

neither

Turkey · January 21, 2018, 09:16:39 PM

Let us assume a fully grown, completely healthy Clydesdale horse has his hooves shackled to the ground while he head is held in place with thick rope. He is conscious and standing upright, but he is completely immobile. And let us assume that for some reason every political prisoner on earth (as cited by Amnesty International) will be released from captivity if you can kick this horse to death in less than twenty minutes. You are allowed to wear steel-toed boots. Would you attempt to do this?

Coomer · January 21, 2018, 09:19:42 PM

Quote from: Turkey on January 21, 2018, 09:16:39 PM

Let us assume a fully grown, completely healthy Clydesdale horse has his hooves shackled to the ground while he head is held in place with thick rope. He is conscious and standing upright, but he is completely immobile. And let us assume that for some reason every political prisoner on earth (as cited by Amnesty International) will be released from captivity if you can kick this horse to death in less than twenty minutes. You are allowed to wear steel-toed boots. Would you attempt to do this?

So you're telling me I can fuck this horse and there's nothing anybody can do to stop me?

challengerX · January 21, 2018, 10:14:49 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Thrasher · January 21, 2018, 10:23:08 PM

Ends don't justify means. I hate to use the old cliche but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Coomer · January 22, 2018, 01:22:38 AM

Quote from: challengerX on January 21, 2018, 10:14:49 PM

Quote from: Turkey on January 21, 2018, 09:16:39 PM
Let us assume a fully grown, completely healthy Clydesdale horse has his hooves shackled to the ground while he head is held in place with thick rope. He is conscious and standing upright, but he is completely immobile. And let us assume that for some reason every political prisoner on earth (as cited by Amnesty International) will be released from captivity if you can kick this horse to death in less than twenty minutes. You are allowed to wear steel-toed boots. Would you attempt to do this?
Never. I don't believe that by putting negativity into the world you can create something positive.

Why not?

Dietrich Six · January 22, 2018, 06:27:50 AM

Quote from: Aether on January 21, 2018, 07:25:48 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on January 21, 2018, 01:38:47 AM
Hero, a net gain is a net gain.
That's not gaining anything, it's just losing 10 people instead of 100.

Saving 90 peeps yo

Zonda · January 22, 2018, 06:53:25 AM

On principle, the actions you took will mostly be more important regardless of the outcome, but if it’s a situation of extreme morality like the one in the OP, then to me the result is a more weighty factor. It more becomes about your personal values and whether the blood of a hundred is worth sparing for the sake of the blood of ten on your own hands, rather than result vs intended action to me.

Aether · January 22, 2018, 08:35:28 AM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on January 22, 2018, 06:27:50 AM

Quote from: Aether on January 21, 2018, 07:25:48 PM
Quote from: Dietrich Six on January 21, 2018, 01:38:47 AM
Hero, a net gain is a net gain.
That's not gaining anything, it's just losing 10 people instead of 100.

Saving 90 peeps yo

You're picking the lesser of two loses. I don't see it as a gain in any way.

Turkey · January 22, 2018, 08:57:04 AM

Quote from: Aether on January 22, 2018, 08:35:28 AM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on January 22, 2018, 06:27:50 AM
Quote from: Aether on January 21, 2018, 07:25:48 PM
Quote from: Dietrich Six on January 21, 2018, 01:38:47 AM
Hero, a net gain is a net gain.
That's not gaining anything, it's just losing 10 people instead of 100.

Saving 90 peeps yo
You're picking the lesser of two loses. I don't see it as a gain in any way.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/opportunitycost.asp

Aether · January 22, 2018, 09:17:43 AM

Quote from: Turkey on January 22, 2018, 08:57:04 AM

Quote from: Aether on January 22, 2018, 08:35:28 AM
Quote from: Dietrich Six on January 22, 2018, 06:27:50 AM
Quote from: Aether on January 21, 2018, 07:25:48 PM
Quote from: Dietrich Six on January 21, 2018, 01:38:47 AM
Hero, a net gain is a net gain.
That's not gaining anything, it's just losing 10 people instead of 100.

Saving 90 peeps yo
You're picking the lesser of two loses. I don't see it as a gain in any way.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/opportunitycost.asp

That's fine, I'm not gonna say there isn't opportunity cost in this situation, all I am saying is that you have less people than the amount you started with regardless of what decision you make. If you place value on the lives of these people then you're set up to lose either way. You would have to make a decision, and there are plenty of arguments to be made for both, but I wouldn't consider either a net gain in any form. Unless the people you would be killing are somehow a detriment to society, and that detriment somehow outweighs the value of their lives.

Dietrich Six · January 22, 2018, 04:15:09 PM

Quote from: Aether on January 22, 2018, 09:17:43 AM

Quote from: Turkey on January 22, 2018, 08:57:04 AM
Quote from: Aether on January 22, 2018, 08:35:28 AM
Quote from: Dietrich Six on January 22, 2018, 06:27:50 AM
Quote from: Aether on January 21, 2018, 07:25:48 PM
Quote from: Dietrich Six on January 21, 2018, 01:38:47 AM
Hero, a net gain is a net gain.
That's not gaining anything, it's just losing 10 people instead of 100.

Saving 90 peeps yo
You're picking the lesser of two loses. I don't see it as a gain in any way.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/opportunitycost.asp
That's fine, I'm not gonna say there isn't opportunity cost in this situation, all I am saying is that you have less people than the amount you started with regardless of what decision you make. If you place value on the lives of these people then you're set up to lose either way. You would have to make a decision, and there are plenty of arguments to be made for both, but I wouldn't consider either a net gain in any form. Unless the people you would be killing are somehow a detriment to society, and that detriment somehow outweighs the value of their lives.

This is really just an argument of semantics tbh.