when you first did drugs

Rinev · July 12, 2015, 08:23:41 PM

I've never done drugs (and probably never will), but I have thought of it only to see what being high is like.

Jive Turkey · July 12, 2015, 08:24:58 PM

I started drugs later than most of my peers. I am very interested in learning about and experiencing altered states of consciousness, from drugs to meditation to sleep deprivation and stuff. Playing life by the rules is boring to me. A lot of things are "dumb" but avoiding them because of that is not the life I want to live. When I'm 75(if I even make it to that age lmaaaoo) am I going to look back and be glad I avoided all of those experiences because they aren't the smartest thing to do? Probably not. Anyways I'm pretty low inhibition for the most part, so that makes a lot of my decisions easier and I'm much happier haha.

I haven't done many drugs but I plan on doing:
Shrooms
Coke(maybe. seems dirty to me tbh)
Ecstasy
Maybe DMT
Maybe LSD

Marijuana: My thoughts were really slow. Attention span was short as fuck so half the time I didn't realize I was high until I thought about it and then I'd be like "woah, this is not my normal reality". I think I was just in amazement of how I was experiencing the world in a way I never had before. Everything was so slow. I felt like nothing I did made any sense. I also kept thinking I was going to get in trouble.

Alcohol: After a few drinks I noticed that I was feeling pretty good. Calm almost, I didn't really care about consequences. My inhibitions went down, I remember thinking that EVERYTHING seemed like a good idea. Even if it wasn't I didn't really care.

yeah that's it p much

Verbatim · July 12, 2015, 08:26:14 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:13:55 PM

I don't mean to. I'm going off of your statement, "what goes into the mindset of 'i'm gonna play around with the most precious and valuable organ in my body' "

yes, and there's nothing in that statement that speaks anything about harm

in my opinion--and i'd even go as far as to call it a philosophy--given that the brain is the most valuable organ in your body--you should feel obliged not only to take special care of it, but also with a degree of dignity and respect

this includes not marring it with toxic chemicals simply because they make you feel good

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:23:33 PM

Sorry about doing this immediately after you asked me to not put words into your mouth, but your appeal to nature is pretty silly.

i'm not appealing to nature

i'm appealing to reason

there's an intrinsically good reason to be happy about all the things i listed
except for smoking weed

dopamine is irrelevant--for what reason is the dopamine being released?
THAT is what's being discussed

Turkey · July 12, 2015, 08:29:18 PM

In that case, we shouldn't do anything that makes us happy unless it has utility. And yes, you certainly are appealing to nature. You criticized it by saying it wasn't natural in comparison to other ways we experience happiness.

Marijuana isn't toxic, has no detrimental side effects, and is non-habit-forming.

Jono · July 12, 2015, 08:30:43 PM

I've never done any drugs.

Oh darn, guess that makes me a boring person.

Verbatim · July 12, 2015, 08:32:31 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:29:18 PM

In that case, we shouldn't do anything that makes us happy unless it has utility.

i would argue that 99% of all happiness that isn't derived from drugs has some level of utlity

Quote

And yes, you certainly are appealing to nature. You criticized it by saying it wasn't natural in comparison to other ways we experience happiness.

just ignore the fact that there's nothing intrinsically good about smoking weed, such that it should make anyone happy to smoke it, then

whereas there IS an intrinsic good in everytihng else that i stated

i think you're the one appealing to nature here
"it release dopamine, therefore good"

what

Turkey · July 12, 2015, 08:37:32 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 08:32:31 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:29:18 PM
In that case, we shouldn't do anything that makes us happy unless it has utility.
i would argue that 99% of all happiness that isn't derived from drugs has some level of utlity

Okay. Argue it. And explain why recreational drugs in particular are bad, but any other chemical that you ingest or are exposed to that causes it is good (i.e., food, beverages, scents, etc.).

Quote

Quote
And yes, you certainly are appealing to nature. You criticized it by saying it wasn't natural in comparison to other ways we experience happiness.
just ignore the fact that there's nothing intrinsically good about smoking weed, such that it should make anyone happy to smoke it, then

whereas there IS an intrinsic good in everytihng else that i stated

i think you're the one appealing to nature here
"it release dopamine, therefore good"

what

At no point did I say that something is good if it releases dopamine. I'm pointing out how flawed it is to say meeting a friend is good because it makes you happy, but marijuana is bad because it makes you happy artificially.

Quote

weed is a drug
that makes you happy
but only artificially

Solonoid · July 12, 2015, 08:42:44 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 08:03:59 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:01:47 PM
There are quite a few recreational drugs that are very safe.
i don't really care

Yeah guys he doesn't care that there are safe drugs.

That's why he made this thread calling everyone who uses threads dumb, because he doesn't care.

Miia · July 12, 2015, 08:43:11 PM

never done drugs

Verbatim · July 12, 2015, 08:44:13 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:37:32 PM

Okay. Argue it. And explain why recreational drugs in particular are bad, but any other chemical that you ingest or are exposed to that causes it is good (i.e., food, beverages, scents, etc.).

you need food to live
you can live a full life without ever smoking a single joint

being happy about food is a rational happiness--if food didn't make us happy, we wouldn't eat it, and we would die

Quote

At no point did I say that something is good if it releases dopamine. I'm pointing out how flawed it is to say meeting a friend is good because it makes you happy, but marijuana is bad because it makes you happy artificially.

this really isn't a complex or controversial statement that i'm making

why be happy over literally nothing when you could be happy about something

even if you derive pleasure from playing video games--at least you have the illusion of doing something productive

weed is nothing
you are happy over nothing
you are happy for the sake of being happy

Verbatim · July 12, 2015, 08:44:59 PM

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 12, 2015, 08:42:44 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 08:03:59 PM
Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:01:47 PM
There are quite a few recreational drugs that are very safe.
i don't really care
Yeah guys he doesn't care that there are safe drugs.

That's why he made this thread calling everyone who uses threads dumb, because he doesn't care.

i care if you do drugs

i don't care if drugs are safe

this isn't complicated

Solonoid · July 12, 2015, 08:48:47 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 08:44:59 PM

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 12, 2015, 08:42:44 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 08:03:59 PM
Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:01:47 PM
There are quite a few recreational drugs that are very safe.
i don't really care
Yeah guys he doesn't care that there are safe drugs.

That's why he made this thread calling everyone who uses threads dumb, because he doesn't care.
i care if you do drugs

i don't care if drugs are safe

this isn't complicated

Why do you care if someone else is doing something safely?
Would you prefer I lived on the edge?

Turkey · July 12, 2015, 08:49:03 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 08:44:13 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:37:32 PM
Okay. Argue it. And explain why recreational drugs in particular are bad, but any other chemical that you ingest or are exposed to that causes it is good (i.e., food, beverages, scents, etc.).
you need food to live
you can live a full life without ever smoking a single joint

I can live a full life without ever eating a perfectly cooked steak or a pint of ice cream, yet you're not on here giving people shit for sharing their experiences of their first time eating those.

It's just so pointless to take issue with the exact cause of peoples' happiness in a time where the means to experience it are so common and available. If happiness in itself has utility and benefits the human condition, then it shouldn't matter what the source is (assuming it's ethical; like, it's not okay to derive happiness from murdering toddlers).

Verbatim · July 12, 2015, 08:50:10 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:49:03 PM

I can live a full life without ever eating a perfectly cooked steak or a pint of ice cream, yet you're not on here giving people shit for sharing their experiences of their first time eating those.

i'm a vegan

yes i do

Solonoid · July 12, 2015, 08:50:12 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:49:03 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 08:44:13 PM
Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:37:32 PM
Okay. Argue it. And explain why recreational drugs in particular are bad, but any other chemical that you ingest or are exposed to that causes it is good (i.e., food, beverages, scents, etc.).
you need food to live
you can live a full life without ever smoking a single joint
a perfectly cooked steak

Oh but he is giving you shit.

Turkey · July 12, 2015, 08:51:15 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 08:50:10 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:49:03 PM
I can live a full life without ever eating a perfectly cooked steak or a pint of ice cream, yet you're not on here giving people shit for sharing their experiences of their first time eating those.
i'm a vegan

yes i do

Okay, how about a delicious salad? Or a vegan dessert? Now you're just being pedantic.

Quote

It's just so pointless to take issue with the exact cause of peoples' happiness in a time where the means to experience it are so common and available. If happiness in itself has utility and benefits the human condition, then it shouldn't matter what the source is (assuming it's ethical; like, it's not okay to derive happiness from murdering toddlers).

Jive Turkey · July 12, 2015, 08:52:01 PM

Verb brah I guarantee you would be much happier if you changed your philosophies. Completely disregard the possibility that they may even be 100% correct and see that your ideas are not doing you any favors in terms of your own personal happiness man.

Verbatim · July 12, 2015, 08:53:53 PM

Quote from: Jive Turkey on July 12, 2015, 08:52:01 PM

Verb brah I guarantee you would be much happier if you changed your philosophies. Completely disregard the possibility that they may even be 100% correct and see that your ideas are not doing you any favors in terms of your own personal happiness man.

philosophy isn't about personal happiness, though--it's about describing the truth of reality

the truth isn't always pleasant

Verbatim · July 12, 2015, 08:58:30 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 08:51:15 PM

Okay, how about a delicious salad? Or a vegan dessert? Now you're just being pedantic.

hardly--my veganism is well-known, so i'd have expected you to optimize

Quote

It's just so pointless to take issue with the exact cause of peoples' happiness in a time where the means to experience it are so common and available.

in other words, "millions of people smoke weed and enjoy it, so it's pointless to be upset about it"

which is an appeal to majority
i don't care what you think is pointless--smoking weed is pointless

Quote

If happiness in itself has utility and benefits the human condition, then it shouldn't matter what the source is (assuming it's ethical; like, it's not okay to derive happiness from murdering toddlers).

but happiness does not have utility in itself

and i've never made such an argument

Verbatim · July 12, 2015, 09:01:07 PM

and again--you need food to live

it's rational to feel happy when eating, because if eating didn't make you happy, you probably wouldn't want to
and if you don't eat, you're gonna die--slowly and painfully

food happiness has utility
weed highs do not

Thun · July 12, 2015, 09:03:18 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 09:01:07 PM

food happiness has utility
weed highs do not

You need to meet more people, breh. Some people actually need it to get through the day, no joke.

Turkey · July 12, 2015, 09:04:06 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 08:58:30 PM

Quote
It's just so pointless to take issue with the exact cause of peoples' happiness in a time where the means to experience it are so common and available.
in other words, "millions of people smoke weed and enjoy it, so it's pointless to be upset about it"

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying there are so many available sources of happiness that to try to define some sort of good/bad paradigm based on whether the source has a utility (which itself is highly subjective and largely superfluous) is just pointless. And if that's pointless, then according to you, you shouldn't be doing it.

Quote

but happiness does not have utility in itself

Of course it does. Happiness is essential to one's health.

Verbatim · July 12, 2015, 09:05:33 PM

Name ANY (ethical) recreational activity that doesn't involve any kind of drug.

The pleasure derived from that activity is going have more utility than any recreational drug.

Verbatim · July 12, 2015, 09:07:04 PM

Quote from: Suarez on July 12, 2015, 09:03:18 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 09:01:07 PM
food happiness has utility
weed highs do not
You need to meet more people, breh. Some people actually need it to get through the day, no joke.

being dependent on a substance is a disutility

Solonoid · July 12, 2015, 09:07:36 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 09:05:33 PM

Name ANY (ethical) recreational activity that doesn't involve any kind of drug.

The pleasure derived from that activity is going have more utility than any recreational drug.

Ethics are a church scam, and what use is extra utility if I don't want or need it?

Yu · July 12, 2015, 09:09:19 PM

Nothing but alcohol, and only on rare occasion, its good for loosening up my body in small amounts, more than that and well I just get silly.

Septy · July 12, 2015, 09:10:44 PM

Quote from: True Turquoise on July 12, 2015, 08:05:17 PM

Never done drugs.

And I won't.

But how do you stay alive without antibiotics

Verbatim · July 12, 2015, 09:10:52 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on July 12, 2015, 09:04:06 PM

is just pointless.

i disagree

obviously

dissuading people from doing pointless activities (some of which are potentially dangerous) is something i'd call the opposite of pointless

Quote

Of course it does. Happiness is essential to one's health.

a pedophile rapes a ten year old and feels happy

Turkey · July 12, 2015, 09:11:58 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 09:05:33 PM

Name ANY (ethical) recreational activity that doesn't involve any kind of drug.

The pleasure derived from that activity is going have more utility than any recreational drug.

Sex
Eating vegan ice cream
Staring blankly into space
Watching midgets ride motorcycles at a circus
Reading a book with no intellectual merit

How are you quantifying that? Why do you think it's important to optimize the utility of your recreational activities? Why do you think recreational activities' utility can even be reasonably stated?

This whole discussion is nonsense.

Quote from: Verbatim on July 12, 2015, 09:10:52 PM

Quote
Of course it does. Happiness is essential to one's health.
a pedophile rapes a ten year old and feels happy

Jesus Christ, I specifically stated that we're talking about ethical actions. You can't deny that happiness is tangibly related to your mental and physical health. Happiness has utility, and its source is generally irrelevant. In fact, it's been argued on here that pedophiles should be allowed a safe environment to express their desires (I think through CP cartoons or something) because attempting to ignore them is physically detrimental to them.

Solonoid · July 12, 2015, 09:16:12 PM

You know verb, you seem awfully concerned with people living productive lives for someone who wants to enable non-productivity by reducing the cost of living to nothing.

On one hand you want to remove the incentive for being productive, and on the other you insist that people lead productive lives and hold utilitarian hobbies.