Vegan argument simulator

Verbatim · July 05, 2018, 04:30:41 PM

if you're on mobile, stop being a peasant and get on your desktop instead

otherwise, this thread isn't gonna work for you

Why do you think it's okay to kill animals for food?

#1. Because they're just animals. We may be animals, too, but they're still below us on the food chain. You simply cannot compare a human with an animal, because we evolved to be superior to them.

Ah, the classic "speciesist" argument—the belief that humans are inherently "superior" to livestock, because a human is a human is a cow is a cow. Mindless bigotry combined with toxic "might makes right" philosophy. Anything that you can overpower is yours to overpower, and it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, because they're not gonna be able to do anything about it anyway.

So, if an advanced alien race invaded us from the cosmos and decided to enslave and consume the entire human race, because they're stronger than us, and we have no chance of fighting back, we should just accept our fate. We can still try to fight them, but if we lose, we lose, and they'll have carte blanche over all humanity. That's what you'd be okay with.

#1a. I wouldn't be okay with that, actually. As a human, I want the human race to continue to survive, so if we were destroyed by aliens more powerful than us, there may not be anything we can do about it, but it still wouldn't be right.

Perhaps you should consider applying those morals to the lesser beings that you consume. If you don't see what makes it okay for an extraterrestrial race to consume humans, to not apply the same standard across the board would be a basic example of hypocrisy.

#1b. Yes, I would be okay with that.

Your sense of ethics is dogshit—borderline insane—but at least you're consistent.

#2. Because wild animals eat each other all the time. Some of them are carnivorous, and can't even survive unless they consume another animal's flesh. What makes it so different for us? It's just natural.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature

There are a lot of perfectly natural things about the world that are decidedly not good or okay. Disease is natural, so I guess we should just throw out all of our vaccines and all of our medicine, and just allow natural forces to destroy our bodies from the inside out. Don't try to stop it, it's just nature.

Or, we can say "fuck that," continue using medicine, continue wearing clothes, continue using technology, and continue using the reasoning brains we've been given to make the world a better and more rational place for life to exist in—not in the name of nature, but in spite of nature.

The one thing that separates humans from animals is that animals can't reason. We have a brain that we can consciously use for good, ethical, or altruistic purposes. Animals obviously don't, and while that may not make us superior to animals, in the sense that it gives us the right to exploit them—No, what it does is behoove us to be smart, responsible, and compassionate. Just because animals can't do that doesn't mean we can't, or that we should stoop to their level. That's retarded.

What you're basically suggesting for us to do is to regress, and reduce ourselves to the stupid, primitive animals that we evolved from, functioning solely on our most base and carnal desires. Why are you like this?

#2a. I just don't think it's right to assume you know better than nature.

"Nature" doesn't "know" anything. Nature is not a person. Nature is not a god. Nature is a deterministic force—it has no thoughts, it's just a perpetual yet seemingly inescapable influence on the physical world. Luckily for us, however, it does not have a total stranglehold on reality. Using our intelligence, we can influence the influencer, and practically bend it to our will, just like we've been doing for millennia. The fact that human beings, as weak and frail and fragile as we are, became the most "successful" species on the planet should be proof positive to you that nature does not completely own us. If it did, we wouldn't be ruling the world right now.

We can rule it, and we can also defy and reject it. We don't have to reduce ourselves to stupid animals. So let's not. That's, more or less, what our intelligence is for.

#3. Because I can. Humans are omnivores, after all.

The ability to do something, unfortunately, does not give you the right to do it. You're going to need more robust reasoning than that.

#3a. I don't care. I don't need to justify myself to you.

"Go fuck yourself" is the only appropriate response to anything resembling this. This applies to any subject.

#4. Some people need to eat meat. There are certain nutrients that can't easily be found in a plant-based diet, like vitamin B12.

Let's not play games—You don't get enough vitamins, you don't care about your health. And even if you do, you're not a dietitian, and you don't know shit about shit. This is just a lazy excuse.

B12 can be supplemented easily. They're called... vitamin supplements. They're available everywhere, and if you truly cared at all about your health, you should probably be ingesting a bunch of these anyway, because no one is getting enough of their most essential vitamins.

Alternatively, you can look around for fortified foods that have B12 in them. It's not difficult, it's not hard. You just have to know and pay attention to what you're doing. You just don't want to because it requires you to put a little bit more effort into what you're buying at the grocery store, because you normally don't put any thought into it at all.

As for protein, there are numerous sources of protein in many plant-based foods. There's beans, nuts, legumes, lentils, mushrooms, and more. You can even substitute your precious meat for soy-based analogues that taste remotely similar, even if they're not perfect.

#4a. Yeah, but aren't those things all pretty expensive? I don't know if I can afford vegan products. Or find them, for that matter.

You can. Look harder.

If you truly can't, consider doing something about it. Move out. Go to stores you've never visited before. Find shit online. If you can't, but you're still wiling to, then at least your heart is in the right place, and I have nothing to spite you for, really.

Most of you can, but just aren't willing to.

#5. I don't.

Good.

this isn't complete, and i was planning on building upon it later

but then i noticed that someone already did it way better than me, oops

maverick · July 05, 2018, 04:55:58 PM

I followed the thread fine on mobile.

Verbatim · July 05, 2018, 05:00:18 PM

Quote from: maverick on July 05, 2018, 04:55:58 PM

I followed the thread fine on mobile.

fair enough, i've just heard that spoiler tags don't work on mobile or something

challengerX · July 05, 2018, 05:14:15 PM

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Flee · July 05, 2018, 05:20:26 PM

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Flee · July 05, 2018, 05:29:54 PM

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Verbatim · July 05, 2018, 05:40:38 PM

Quote from: Flee on July 05, 2018, 05:29:54 PM

Not gonna go through all of it but I'm immediately skeptical of any activist site or group that make claims like "scientists have proven that X" when this is not only contested/challenged but also ignores crucial parts of the research at hand. This is literally the second point out of the list of 49 and I already have issues trusting their other claims. If you ever want to win people over and build a proper argument, don't do this stuff. It only hurts your credibility.

Don't see anything wrong with the claim.

My response to the same argument was better anyway, so substitute mine for theirs if you absolutely must. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with challenging the concept that humans are indisputably at the top of the food chain, because that's really only insofar as our technological advancement goes.

Try fighting a lion naked.

July 05, 2018, 05:52:10 PM

I don't think it's right to kill animals, but cutting meats from my diet won't improve my health or change the market any significant manner. It also wouldn't make me a better person.

Verbatim · July 05, 2018, 05:56:03 PM

Quote from: Vien on July 05, 2018, 05:52:10 PM

I don't think it's right to kill animals, but cutting meats from my diet won't improve my health or change the market any significant manner. It also wouldn't make me a better person.

Yes it would, no it wouldn't but that's not the point, and yes it would.

Flee · July 05, 2018, 05:58:00 PM

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July 05, 2018, 06:04:14 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 05, 2018, 05:56:03 PM

Quote from: Vien on July 05, 2018, 05:52:10 PM
I don't think it's right to kill animals, but cutting meats from my diet won't improve my health or change the market any significant manner. It also wouldn't make me a better person.
Yes it would, no it wouldn't but that's not the point, and yes it would.

It's healthy to moderate your meats and cut back every so often. As for being a better person, leaving such an insignificant impact over a choice during my life shouldn't be concerning. Environmentally, it would make me a better person. It wouldn't make much of a difference unless there are more noticeable drops in consumers. Otherwise, it's not like becoming a vegan would make me any less of an asshole.

Ian · July 05, 2018, 06:09:52 PM

#6 I don’t have an argument but I’ll still eat meat because it’s delicious.

Verbatim · July 05, 2018, 06:26:12 PM

Quote from: Vien on July 05, 2018, 06:04:14 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 05, 2018, 05:56:03 PM
Quote from: Vien on July 05, 2018, 05:52:10 PM
I don't think it's right to kill animals, but cutting meats from my diet won't improve my health or change the market any significant manner. It also wouldn't make me a better person.
Yes it would, no it wouldn't but that's not the point, and yes it would.
It's healthy to moderate your meats and cut back every so often. As for being a better person, leaving such an insignificant impact over a choice during my life shouldn't be concerning. Environmentally, it would make me a better person. It wouldn't make much of a difference unless there are more noticeable drops in consumers. Otherwise, it's not like becoming a vegan would make me any less of an asshole.

I think there's a lot more to becoming a better person than the ability or capacity to make widespread social change. You'll probably never make any real impact on anything in life, let alone this—but I don't see why that should preclude you from the "is a good person" club.

Maybe not the good person club, but the better person club. Maybe no one is capable of being good, but everyone is capable of being better.

Ingy · July 05, 2018, 08:33:52 PM

Solonoid · July 05, 2018, 09:13:47 PM

you forgot the most important and easily justified reason

they're tasty

Ásgeirr · July 05, 2018, 09:30:38 PM

That guide really underestimates how bad vegan food tastes like. Fruits aside all the other shit is unsalvageable without animal products. Yeah yeah morality and what not but that point really underestimates just how bad it all is.

Interesting read nonetheless but im not convinced most could live off of a vegan diet without a loss in health or monetary situation.

Elai · July 05, 2018, 10:14:36 PM

Quote from: Ásgeirr on July 05, 2018, 09:30:38 PM

That guide really underestimates how bad vegan food tastes like. Fruits aside all the other shit is unsalvageable without animal products. Yeah yeah morality and what not but that point really underestimates just how bad it all is.

Interesting read nonetheless but im not convinced most could live off of a vegan diet without a loss in health or monetary situation.

If you think all vegan food tastes bad you seriously need to develop your palate. there are objective standards to taste that vegan options clearly meet. asian cultures have fantastic food that never touches animal product.

it's also worth noting that "non-vegan" food tastes "better" generally because it's loaded with processed sugars and chemicals to trigger your brain into wanting more of it. cut these out of your diet and you will notice the drop-off in overall taste difference between healthy non-vegan and vegan diets is almost nonexistent (you will also notice higher brain function, more energy and lower stress but few here actually seem to care about their health and just want to wollow in self-pity.)

Ásgeirr · July 05, 2018, 10:43:48 PM

Quote from: Eli on July 05, 2018, 10:14:36 PM

Quote from: Ásgeirr on July 05, 2018, 09:30:38 PM
That guide really underestimates how bad vegan food tastes like. Fruits aside all the other shit is unsalvageable without animal products. Yeah yeah morality and what not but that point really underestimates just how bad it all is.

Interesting read nonetheless but im not convinced most could live off of a vegan diet without a loss in health or monetary situation.

If you think all vegan food tastes bad you seriously need to develop your palate. there are objective standards to taste that vegan options clearly meet. asian cultures have fantastic food that never touches animal product.

it's also worth noting that "non-vegan" food tastes "better" generally because it's loaded with processed sugars and chemicals to trigger your brain into wanting more of it. cut these out of your diet and you will notice the drop-off in overall taste difference between healthy non-vegan and vegan diets is almost nonexistent (you will also notice higher brain function, more energy and lower stress but few here actually seem to care about their health and just want to wollow in self-pity.)

Im aware nothing on the store shelves is free of additives. Minced meat isnt supposed to be as red as it is for example and it does actually put me off a little.

Non seasoned meat is pretty tasteless but its still better due to texture. What little vegan food ive had has been powdery, tasteless, covered in another flavor entirely or soggy. Thats not to say i havent had anything at all i dont like, peeled carrot with lemon extract is some gooooooooood shit but i cant tolerate vegetables much.

It might entirely just be me as im very sensitive to texture. Mushrooms make me throw up the instant i bite one. Id love to get a buffet of various vegan dishes from somewhere like China like you mentioned, countries that know what the fuck theyre doing with vegetables.

Verbatim · July 05, 2018, 11:31:34 PM

Quote from: Solonoid on July 05, 2018, 09:13:47 PM

you forgot the most important and easily justified reason

they're tasty

that's not a reason why you'd think eating animals is okay

that's a reason why you eat animals

two different questions

nobody who thinks it's okay to eat animals on the SOLE BASIS that they taste good is a person i'm willing to take seriously, because the counterarguments against that position are so obvious and facile that it's a complete waste of time and effort

Verbatim · July 05, 2018, 11:32:17 PM

Quote from: Ian on July 05, 2018, 06:09:52 PM

#6 I don’t have an argument but I’ll still eat meat because it’s delicious.

a more honest way of saying that would be "because i'm addicted and i don't care"

Verbatim · July 05, 2018, 11:35:17 PM

Quote from: Ásgeirr on July 05, 2018, 09:30:38 PM

That guide really underestimates how bad vegan food tastes like.

i think you're overestimating how much it matters

vegan food could taste like literal, actual shit, and i wouldn't stop being a vegan or being an advocate

it helps that it actually doesn't taste that bad, though

Solonoid · July 06, 2018, 12:59:24 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 05, 2018, 11:31:34 PM

Quote from: Solonoid on July 05, 2018, 09:13:47 PM
you forgot the most important and easily justified reason

they're tasty
that's not a reason why you'd think eating animals is okay

that's a reason why you eat animals

two different questions

nobody who thinks it's okay to eat animals on the SOLE BASIS that they taste good is a person i'm willing to take seriously, because the counterarguments against that position are so obvious and facile that it's a complete waste of time and effort

people deserve to feel good and and cows deserve to taste good

:^)

FatherlyNick - fuck putin · July 06, 2018, 03:56:38 AM

Is free-range farming a cow for milk / cheese okay?

Verbatim · July 06, 2018, 04:19:14 AM

Quote from: FatherlyNick on July 06, 2018, 03:56:38 AM

Is free-range farming a cow for milk / cheese okay?

nope, because that cow's milk is still not really for you to consume, and the cow itself still does not exist for you to exploit, even if you treat it as nicely as possible

i'd have to concede that it's much less shitty to do it that way (or at least, the idea of it is), but it's still highly unnecessary

FatherlyNick - fuck putin · July 06, 2018, 04:25:29 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 06, 2018, 04:19:14 AM

Quote from: FatherlyNick on July 06, 2018, 03:56:38 AM
Is free-range farming a cow for milk / cheese okay?
nope, because that cow's milk is still not really for you to consume, and the cow itself still does not exist for you to exploit, even if you treat it as nicely as possible

i'd have to concede that it's much less shitty to do it that way (or at least, the idea of it is), but it's still highly unnecessary

But Veeerb, I fucking love cheese!

;__;

Elai · July 06, 2018, 06:06:40 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 06, 2018, 04:19:14 AM

Quote from: FatherlyNick on July 06, 2018, 03:56:38 AM
Is free-range farming a cow for milk / cheese okay?
nope, because that cow's milk is still not really for you to consume, and the cow itself still does not exist for you to exploit, even if you treat it as nicely as possible

i'd have to concede that it's much less shitty to do it that way (or at least, the idea of it is), but it's still highly unnecessary

how do you feel about free range chickens for eggs?

Elai · July 06, 2018, 06:08:41 AM

Quote from: Ásgeirr on July 05, 2018, 10:43:48 PM

Quote from: Eli on July 05, 2018, 10:14:36 PM
Quote from: Ásgeirr on July 05, 2018, 09:30:38 PM
That guide really underestimates how bad vegan food tastes like. Fruits aside all the other shit is unsalvageable without animal products. Yeah yeah morality and what not but that point really underestimates just how bad it all is.

Interesting read nonetheless but im not convinced most could live off of a vegan diet without a loss in health or monetary situation.

If you think all vegan food tastes bad you seriously need to develop your palate. there are objective standards to taste that vegan options clearly meet. asian cultures have fantastic food that never touches animal product.

it's also worth noting that "non-vegan" food tastes "better" generally because it's loaded with processed sugars and chemicals to trigger your brain into wanting more of it. cut these out of your diet and you will notice the drop-off in overall taste difference between healthy non-vegan and vegan diets is almost nonexistent (you will also notice higher brain function, more energy and lower stress but few here actually seem to care about their health and just want to wollow in self-pity.)
Im aware nothing on the store shelves is free of additives. Minced meat isnt supposed to be as red as it is for example and it does actually put me off a little.

Non seasoned meat is pretty tasteless but its still better due to texture. What little vegan food ive had has been powdery, tasteless, covered in another flavor entirely or soggy. Thats not to say i havent had anything at all i dont like, peeled carrot with lemon extract is some gooooooooood shit but i cant tolerate vegetables much.

It might entirely just be me as im very sensitive to texture. Mushrooms make me throw up the instant i bite one. Id love to get a buffet of various vegan dishes from somewhere like China like you mentioned, countries that know what the fuck theyre doing with vegetables.

a lot of the issues with these feux-meat vegan options is that they have an uphill battle from the get go, as people will always compare them to the real thing

i prefer straight unapologetic vegan meals because they tend to taste better and be better for you

Ásgeirr · July 06, 2018, 11:05:19 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 05, 2018, 11:35:17 PM

Quote from: Ásgeirr on July 05, 2018, 09:30:38 PM
That guide really underestimates how bad vegan food tastes like.
i think you're overestimating how much it matters

vegan food could taste like literal, actual shit, and i wouldn't stop being a vegan or being an advocate

it helps that it actually doesn't taste that bad, though

For you.

Do you think being misinformed is why more people arent vegan?

challengerX · July 06, 2018, 11:07:50 AM

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Ásgeirr · July 06, 2018, 11:09:45 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 06, 2018, 11:07:50 AM

Quote from: Ásgeirr on July 06, 2018, 11:05:19 AM
For you.
absolutely based how does he do it