If a drug treats symptoms and not underlying causes, is the drug really helping

Loaf · December 04, 2016, 06:17:57 PM

I was just thinking, that while it may be true that some people are coded to always feel bad and have unfortunate biology, I think that it's also important to point out that in some cases there is such a thing as "learned helplessness", which is where a person feels that since there's no way to ever improve, that there's no reason to ever even try to improve. As someone who has a method of improvement through philosophy and self reflection (which I admit is an extremely long and arduous process which takes years to come to effect, and a lot of times isn't even successful), I just feel that you should be really careful with how you treat psychiatric drugs unless you really need them.

I really feel that in the society we live in, a lot of what creates depression for people is societal caused. So, I often find it ironic to try to treat things like depression with drugs, if, and that's a big if, their depression is caused by society and not caused by internal factors that have to do with an imbalance in their brain chemicals. Now, i'm not saying I am in any way qualified to diagnose a person as having one of these two causes I've outlined for having depression, but I'm just saying it seems obvious that if there's different possible explanations for why a person may be depressed, then it's possible that there could be some people where the causes aren't addressed, and only the symptoms. That's something I think about a lot when it comes to pharmaceuticals and drugs, I am just very cynical and skeptical about the whole thing.

Aether · December 04, 2016, 06:31:57 PM

Sometimes I feel like doctors condition people into states of learned helplessness simply to make them dependent on medications they shill for pharmaceutical corporations.

Maybe I should be wearing a tin-foil hat, but there's plenty of evidence alluding to corruption within the pharmaceutical industry.

This was interesting and worrying to me:

YouTube

Loaf · December 04, 2016, 06:36:40 PM

I mean, pharmaceutical companies profit off of the mental health crisis of the public, and people like martin shkreli up the price of medications from 12 to 400 dollars, it seems clear to me that such corruption in the industry isn't beyond feasible. If society is sick, I think it's an profit incentive to keep people in a state of needing drugs, in order to treat their symptoms and not their underlying problems.

Verbatim · December 04, 2016, 09:12:24 PM

Drugs are a pretty terrible thing.

Korra · December 04, 2016, 09:56:33 PM

I feel like people should begin to clarify when they say "drugs" because drugs can be stuff like Tylenol or Ibuprofen, not just weed.

Azendac · December 04, 2016, 09:59:01 PM

Depends on the symptoms, I have a condition that occasionally causes incredible pain, but a single pain killer tablet makes it disappear entirely. I had to put up with it for a few years before realizing how easy it was to treat, so it doesn't even matter that nobody knows what the cause is or how to cur it.

For mental condition though, you're looking at a much bigger issue to solve, reformation of society.

Verbatim · December 04, 2016, 10:06:31 PM

Quote from: Yang on December 04, 2016, 09:56:33 PM

I feel like people should begin to clarify when they say "drugs" because drugs can be stuff like Tylenol or Ibuprofen, not just weed.

I do hate all drugs, including Tylenol and any other harmless thing out there (I have a special hatred for anti-depressants).

They're just a symbol of human fragility.

Azendac · December 04, 2016, 10:22:02 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:06:31 PM

Quote from: Yang on December 04, 2016, 09:56:33 PM
I feel like people should begin to clarify when they say "drugs" because drugs can be stuff like Tylenol or Ibuprofen, not just weed.
I do hate all drugs, including Tylenol and any other harmless thing out there (I have a special hatred for anti-depressants).

They're just a symbol of human fragility.

Do you disprove of all medicinal drugs (in particular anesthesia inducing drugs for surgery)? I think recreational drugs are a complete waste of human life, but I don't see a problem in chemically treating some problems.

Verbatim · December 04, 2016, 10:25:54 PM

Quote from: Azendac on December 04, 2016, 10:22:02 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:06:31 PM
I do hate all drugs, including Tylenol and any other harmless thing out there (I have a special hatred for anti-depressants).

They're just a symbol of human fragility.
Do you disprove of all medicinal drugs (in particular anesthesia inducing drugs for surgery)? I think recreational drugs are a complete waste of human life, but I don't see a problem in chemically treating some problems.

Yes, all drugs, including medicinal ones like anesthesia.

It's not that I "disapprove" of them--I just lament the fact that humans need and rely so heavily on them in the first place.

Azendac · December 04, 2016, 10:29:17 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:25:54 PM

Quote from: Azendac on December 04, 2016, 10:22:02 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:06:31 PM
I do hate all drugs, including Tylenol and any other harmless thing out there (I have a special hatred for anti-depressants).

They're just a symbol of human fragility.
Do you disprove of all medicinal drugs (in particular anesthesia inducing drugs for surgery)? I think recreational drugs are a complete waste of human life, but I don't see a problem in chemically treating some problems.
Yes, all drugs, including medicinal ones like anesthesia.

It's not that I "disapprove" of them--I just lament the fact that humans need and rely so heavily on them.

I see, but you do realize that there's nothing that makes drugs as a method of solving problems, unique or special A Priori right? The human body is a collection of chemical factories, that operate based on chemical inputs and outputs, so solving it's problems using chemicals isn't necessarily "bad" anymore than solving a software problem with a software update is.

Korra · December 04, 2016, 10:31:36 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:06:31 PM

Quote from: Yang on December 04, 2016, 09:56:33 PM
I feel like people should begin to clarify when they say "drugs" because drugs can be stuff like Tylenol or Ibuprofen, not just weed.
I do hate all drugs, including Tylenol and any other harmless thing out there (I have a special hatred for anti-depressants).

They're just a symbol of human fragility.

welp

super humans who are immune to all earthly illness when? : (

Verbatim · December 04, 2016, 10:37:45 PM

Quote from: Azendac on December 04, 2016, 10:29:17 PM

I see, but you do realize that there's nothing that makes drugs as a method of solving problems, unique or special A Priori right? The human body is a collection of chemical factories, that operate based on chemical inputs and outputs, so solving it's problems using chemicals isn't necessarily "bad" anymore than solving a software problem with a software update is.

There should be no problems to solve, is my point.

If anything, we should be able to solve our own problems using our own faculties alone.

Korra · December 04, 2016, 10:39:50 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:37:45 PM

Quote from: Azendac on December 04, 2016, 10:29:17 PM
I see, but you do realize that there's nothing that makes drugs as a method of solving problems, unique or special A Priori right? The human body is a collection of chemical factories, that operate based on chemical inputs and outputs, so solving it's problems using chemicals isn't necessarily "bad" anymore than solving a software problem with a software update is.
There should be no problems to solve, is my point.

If anything, we should be able to solve our own problems using our own faculties alone.

like punching a big boulder out of your way?

i mean...that would be cool

Azendac · December 04, 2016, 10:46:33 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:37:45 PM

Quote from: Azendac on December 04, 2016, 10:29:17 PM
I see, but you do realize that there's nothing that makes drugs as a method of solving problems, unique or special A Priori right? The human body is a collection of chemical factories, that operate based on chemical inputs and outputs, so solving it's problems using chemicals isn't necessarily "bad" anymore than solving a software problem with a software update is.
There should be no problems to solve, is my point.

If anything, we should be able to solve our own problems using our own faculties alone.

Would that I could magic my problems away, but that doesn't get you anywhere in real life.
/snark

But isn't using man made drugs "using our own faculties" ? It's solving a problem using a tool that works, we can both agree big pharma tends to fuck this up, but in principle it's just solving a chemical based problem with a chemical based solution. Unless you're drawing the line at injecting things into the human body (which again, isn't A Priori wrong since you solve the problem of hunger and dehydration by ingesting food and water, chemicals).

Aether · December 04, 2016, 11:00:31 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:06:31 PM

Quote from: Yang on December 04, 2016, 09:56:33 PM
I feel like people should begin to clarify when they say "drugs" because drugs can be stuff like Tylenol or Ibuprofen, not just weed.
Tylenol and any other harmless thing out there.

Tylenol is far from harmless.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · December 04, 2016, 11:19:49 PM

Depression should be worked through with therapy alongside medication (if required).

Coomer · December 04, 2016, 11:23:55 PM

The main treatment for depression is therapy but we need medication because therapy is neither fast nor perfect

Sαndtrap · December 04, 2016, 11:24:25 PM

There's a reason why I've never resorted to depression helpers through the years. Those sorts of drugs don't solve your problems that create the depression in the first place. They more or less take a piece of duct tape and patch the hole. As you know, duct tape eventually falls off and the hole is still there.

However, at the same time, everybody's different. Patching the hole with duct tape can allow some people to cross over the hole to the other side of the gap and into something better, to a point where they no longer need the duct tape roll.

Verbatim · December 04, 2016, 11:25:16 PM

Quote from: Aether on December 04, 2016, 11:00:31 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:06:31 PM
Quote from: Yang on December 04, 2016, 09:56:33 PM
I feel like people should begin to clarify when they say "drugs" because drugs can be stuff like Tylenol or Ibuprofen, not just weed.
Tylenol and any other harmless thing out there.
Tylenol is far from harmless.

I'm well-aware.

Coomer · December 04, 2016, 11:25:27 PM

Quote from: Azendac on December 04, 2016, 09:59:01 PM

For mental condition though, you're looking at a much bigger issue to solve, reformation of society.

Not really
Things that cause depression vary from people to people so there is no society that will appease everyone

Best thing to do is to instill the capacity to handle society

Verbatim · December 04, 2016, 11:27:14 PM

Quote from: Azendac on December 04, 2016, 10:46:33 PM

But isn't using man made drugs "using our own faculties"?

No.

Quote

(which again, isn't A Priori wrong since you solve the problem of hunger and dehydration by ingesting food and water, chemicals).

I also lament the need for food and water. I lament "need." People shouldn't "need" anything to survive.

I hate drugs in particular because they tend to be very, very harmful.

Coomer · December 04, 2016, 11:28:39 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:37:45 PM

Quote from: Azendac on December 04, 2016, 10:29:17 PM
I see, but you do realize that there's nothing that makes drugs as a method of solving problems, unique or special A Priori right? The human body is a collection of chemical factories, that operate based on chemical inputs and outputs, so solving it's problems using chemicals isn't necessarily "bad" anymore than solving a software problem with a software update is.
There should be no problems to solve, is my point.

If anything, we should be able to solve our own problems using our own faculties alone.

That's kind of a silly thought
To be able to immediately fix any problem that arise

Humanity would be radically different in very few generations if that were the case

Besides
I think it's amazing that we have the mental ability to make such drugs to make us stronger

Doctor Doom · December 05, 2016, 12:58:02 AM

Quote from: Yang on December 04, 2016, 10:39:50 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:37:45 PM
Quote from: Azendac on December 04, 2016, 10:29:17 PM
I see, but you do realize that there's nothing that makes drugs as a method of solving problems, unique or special A Priori right? The human body is a collection of chemical factories, that operate based on chemical inputs and outputs, so solving it's problems using chemicals isn't necessarily "bad" anymore than solving a software problem with a software update is.
There should be no problems to solve, is my point.

If anything, we should be able to solve our own problems using our own faculties alone.
like punching a big boulder out of your way?

i mean...that would be cool

We in the business refer to it as "pulling a Redfield".

Korra · December 05, 2016, 01:00:04 AM

Quote from: DIO on December 05, 2016, 12:58:02 AM

Quote from: Yang on December 04, 2016, 10:39:50 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:37:45 PM
Quote from: Azendac on December 04, 2016, 10:29:17 PM
I see, but you do realize that there's nothing that makes drugs as a method of solving problems, unique or special A Priori right? The human body is a collection of chemical factories, that operate based on chemical inputs and outputs, so solving it's problems using chemicals isn't necessarily "bad" anymore than solving a software problem with a software update is.
There should be no problems to solve, is my point.

If anything, we should be able to solve our own problems using our own faculties alone.
like punching a big boulder out of your way?

i mean...that would be cool

We in the business refer to it as "pulling a Redfield".

I was waiting for this.

Loaf · December 05, 2016, 05:16:13 AM

Quote from: Yang on December 04, 2016, 09:56:33 PM

I feel like people should begin to clarify when they say "drugs" because drugs can be stuff like Tylenol or Ibuprofen, not just weed.

I mean psychiatric drugs like anti depressants and adhd medication.

rC · December 05, 2016, 06:42:59 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:06:31 PM

Quote from: Yang on December 04, 2016, 09:56:33 PM
I feel like people should begin to clarify when they say "drugs" because drugs can be stuff like Tylenol or Ibuprofen, not just weed.
I do hate all drugs, including Tylenol and any other harmless thing out there (I have a special hatred for anti-depressants).

They're just a symbol of human fragility.

You're such a pessimist. Why not see them as a symbol of human ingenuity?

challengerX · December 05, 2016, 07:27:39 AM

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i am karjala takaisin · December 05, 2016, 07:59:34 AM

hey verbatIm imma just uhh shoot all this fuckin heroin in to my arm

rC · December 05, 2016, 05:31:35 PM

Quote from: challengerX on December 05, 2016, 07:27:39 AM

Quote from: rc on December 05, 2016, 06:42:59 AM
Quote from: Verbatim on December 04, 2016, 10:06:31 PM
Quote from: Yang on December 04, 2016, 09:56:33 PM
I feel like people should begin to clarify when they say "drugs" because drugs can be stuff like Tylenol or Ibuprofen, not just weed.
I do hate all drugs, including Tylenol and any other harmless thing out there (I have a special hatred for anti-depressants).

They're just a symbol of human fragility.
You're such a pessimist. Why not see them as a symbol of human ingenuity?
ur fat lol

Dude im obese