Should Superman kill?

Solonoid · June 18, 2017, 12:50:07 AM

Batman's character is centered around the No Kill Rule, but somewhere along the way Superman picked it up.

I think he works better as a character where he's driven to win at all costs, and when it becomes clear that an adversary is too dangerous to be left alive, snuffs out their life.

But would this make him too much like Aquaman?

maverick · June 18, 2017, 01:02:59 AM

The "No Kill Rule" is starting to get blown a bit out of proportion since TDK. It makes sense for Batman because of his parents and because he's usually just fighting street thugs, relatively speaking. There are moments in the movies where Captain America and Wonder Woman are clearly murdering people and it doesn't really stand out of place, so I don't see why it wouldn't work for Superman.

The Hån · June 18, 2017, 01:03:01 AM

i get not killing your typical generic street punk who stole an old lady's purse, but some guys are just too evil to just be put in time out. plus the whole "no killing" theme is pretty lame tbh.

Ingy · June 18, 2017, 01:15:43 AM

The Justice League has this principle of being guardians and letting the people decide their own path

Korra · June 18, 2017, 01:22:42 AM

No, unless the situation calls for it. Killing opponents and villains that oppose him is not what makes Superman endearing, he's not supposed to be a dark character.

Solonoid · June 18, 2017, 01:25:57 AM

Quote from: Yang Xiao Puns on June 18, 2017, 01:22:42 AM

No, unless the situation calls for it. Killing opponents and villains that oppose him is not what makes Superman endearing, he's not supposed to be a dark character.

That's what I meant.

I just don't think his rule should be as completely solid as Batman's.
It's ridiculous to put somebody like Brainiac in prison.

Ingy · June 18, 2017, 01:26:35 AM

Also
Super man is suppose to be hella American
A single man deciding who should live and die without trial reeks of dictatorship

Solonoid · June 18, 2017, 01:42:02 AM

Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 01:26:35 AM

Also
Super man is suppose to be hella American
A single man deciding who should live and die without trial reeks of dictatorship

That's the sentiment that let palps come to power.

Sometimes justice must be decided by the people.
Sometimes, the only solution is obvious.

In that right I think Supes killing Zod in MoS was a move he would make.
He's done it before.

When a villain has nearly ultimate power and is beyond containment or reason, prison is a non-option.
That's why the Phantom Zone exists, but he keeps the projector in his Fortress of Solitude, so it's not always possible to get to it without letting your enemy lay waste.

Plus scenes where he just get pissed the fuck off and tears through someone are dope.
Sure, he's not an inherently dark character, but the magnanimity he's known for is seen to fade when he becomes truly enraged, and that's I side of the character I love seeing.

Doctor Doom · June 18, 2017, 01:54:07 AM

Of course not. Restraint and self imposed limits are integral to his character. Alan Moore even had him give up his powers and title as soon as he killed Mr. Mxyzptlk at the end of the Silver Age, because he stopped being Superman as soon as he failed to live up those morals.

And really, how disillusioning would it be that the hero who set the modern standard for being a hero can't live up to his own ethical code when it counts? You can have Batman kill without significantly altering the character, but you can't have Superman kill without losing part of who he is.

Ingy · June 18, 2017, 01:56:27 AM

Quote from: UpsetBelligerent on June 18, 2017, 01:42:02 AM

Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 01:26:35 AM
Also
Super man is suppose to be hella American
A single man deciding who should live and die without trial reeks of dictatorship
That's the sentiment that let palps come to power.

Sometimes justice must be decided by the people.
Sometimes, the only solution is obvious.

In that right I think Supes killing Zod in MoS was a move he would make.
He's done it before.

When a villain has nearly ultimate power and is beyond containment or reason, prison is a non-option.
That's why the Phantom Zone exists, but he keeps the projector in his Fortress of Solitude, so it's not always possible to get to it without letting your enemy lay waste.

Plus scenes where he just get pissed the fuck off and tears through someone are dope.
Sure, he's not an inherently dark character, but the magnanimity he's known for is seen to fade when he becomes truly enraged, and that's I side of the character I love seeing.

It's only obvious when his views line up with our's

But that would be betraying his values

Everyone gets brought to justice
You don't get to make an exception just because a guy is tougher to deal with

That's his greatest struggle
Having the power of absolute dominance and choosing not to impose it

Solonoid · June 18, 2017, 02:18:08 AM

Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 01:56:27 AM

Quote from: UpsetBelligerent on June 18, 2017, 01:42:02 AM
Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 01:26:35 AM
Also
Super man is suppose to be hella American
A single man deciding who should live and die without trial reeks of dictatorship
That's the sentiment that let palps come to power.

Sometimes justice must be decided by the people.
Sometimes, the only solution is obvious.

In that right I think Supes killing Zod in MoS was a move he would make.
He's done it before.

When a villain has nearly ultimate power and is beyond containment or reason, prison is a non-option.
That's why the Phantom Zone exists, but he keeps the projector in his Fortress of Solitude, so it's not always possible to get to it without letting your enemy lay waste.

Plus scenes where he just get pissed the fuck off and tears through someone are dope.
Sure, he's not an inherently dark character, but the magnanimity he's known for is seen to fade when he becomes truly enraged, and that's I side of the character I love seeing.

It's only obvious when his views line up with our's

But that would be betraying his values

Everyone gets brought to justice
You don't get to make an exception just because a guy is tougher to deal with

That's his greatest struggle
Having the power of absolute dominance and choosing not to impose it

He has done it before, will do it again, and I like it when he does so long as the timing is right and it really is his best, or only, option.

Glad to hear your input though.

Solonoid · June 18, 2017, 02:33:34 AM

Quote from: Doctor Doom on June 18, 2017, 01:54:07 AM

Of course not. Restraint and self imposed limits are integral to his character. Alan Moore even had him give up his powers and title as soon as he killed Mr. Mxyzptlk at the end of the Silver Age, because he stopped being Superman as soon as he failed to live up those morals.

And really, how disillusioning would it be that the hero who set the modern standard for being a hero can't live up to his own ethical code when it counts? You can have Batman kill without significantly altering the character, but you can't have Superman kill without losing part of who he is.

Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? is a controversial title that isn't agreed upon as canon, even within DC's staff.

My copy of the book even billed it as non-canon on the cover, but other copies say no such thing.

In any event, that was the Superman of the Silver Age, under the Comics Code Authority, which turned the Joker into a wacky prankster identical to Flash's Trickster.

In the Bronze age he was seen to kill on occasion, and in the Superman Saga with Christopher Reeve he killed several of his enemies. The New 52 continuity has ended the lives of several villains already, despite the continuity being only six years underway.

I dislike the argument that Superman shouldn't kill because it isn't in him.
It's largely baseless.

Inglorious's argument about 'the American Way' is better.

Doctor Doom · June 18, 2017, 04:03:43 AM

It's not that it "isn't in him", it's that he chooses not to. You could put him into situations in which he'd be stupid not to 86 the villain, but that would be dark and gritty and depressing, and I'd rather Superman not be dark and gritty and depressing. If you want to finish off a villain at the end of the story, that's what the Phantom Zone was made for.

I guess I'm fine with some Supermen that are willing to cross that line, since he's among the most narratively flexible superheroes around, but I'd despise if it were a mainstay of how he's written. Killing does nothing to improve him as a character. He's not more interesting for it. His best stories don't involve him killing at all.

Also, fuck the New 52, except for Morrison's AC.

challengerX · June 18, 2017, 04:16:10 AM

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Spartan · June 18, 2017, 05:58:52 AM

I think he should avoid it, but if the situation really calls for it, have him do it

Turkey · June 18, 2017, 08:20:18 AM

Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 01:26:35 AM

Also
Super man is suppose to be hella American
A single man deciding who should live and die without trial reeks of dictatorship

Command by Negation

When a police officer kills a criminal in a shootout, is it dictatorship? When generals delineate who can and can't be killed in war through rules of engagement, is it dictatorship when some Private in Iraq kills a guy shooting back at him? The whole concept that Supes is somehow usurping the proper system of justice is ridiculous in the context of a comic world where the Justice League is literally an independent arm of western law and order. It's assumed that they have the authority to impose punishment as they deem appropriate.

OT: it's lazy writing now that it's been established that killing is the ultimate no-no in the DC world. The TV show Arrow actually recently recreated the scene with Green Arrow and Prometheus (holding a hostage, just like Zod), and they wrote a way for Oliver to not kill Prometheus but still save the hostage.

And on another note, this wouldn't even be a big discussion if comics in the last 20 years hadn't devolved into hyper-exaggerated grimdark fantasies where even benign villains are murdering psychopaths.

Elai · June 18, 2017, 09:18:58 AM

Id argue Superman has more of a reason not to kill than Batman.

Mordo · June 18, 2017, 12:21:54 PM

I've always found the no kill code kind of ridiculous. Superheroes like Batman and Spider-Man will literally cause severe brain trauma and paralysis to criminals but wont snuff out a life because that's apparently overboard. Then they have the fucking gall to take the moral high ground when villains like the Joker kill hundreds of people. Muh ethics has always been a shit tier attempt at making the protagonists more virtuous. It doesn't work when these morals do more harm than good.

Korra · June 18, 2017, 01:49:24 PM

Quote from: UpsetBelligerent on June 18, 2017, 02:18:08 AM

Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 01:56:27 AM
Quote from: UpsetBelligerent on June 18, 2017, 01:42:02 AM
Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 01:26:35 AM
Also
Super man is suppose to be hella American
A single man deciding who should live and die without trial reeks of dictatorship
That's the sentiment that let palps come to power.

Sometimes justice must be decided by the people.
Sometimes, the only solution is obvious.

In that right I think Supes killing Zod in MoS was a move he would make.
He's done it before.

When a villain has nearly ultimate power and is beyond containment or reason, prison is a non-option.
That's why the Phantom Zone exists, but he keeps the projector in his Fortress of Solitude, so it's not always possible to get to it without letting your enemy lay waste.

Plus scenes where he just get pissed the fuck off and tears through someone are dope.
Sure, he's not an inherently dark character, but the magnanimity he's known for is seen to fade when he becomes truly enraged, and that's I side of the character I love seeing.

It's only obvious when his views line up with our's

But that would be betraying his values

Everyone gets brought to justice
You don't get to make an exception just because a guy is tougher to deal with

That's his greatest struggle
Having the power of absolute dominance and choosing not to impose it
He has done it before, will do it again, and I like it when he does so long as the timing is right and it really is his best, or only, option.

Glad to hear your input though.

Post-Crisis Superman (aka the only good version of Superman) has only killed 2 times in his entire history. First time was when he executed three Kryptonian criminals that had escaped the Phantom Zone and the PZ projector was damaged and couldn't be repaired in time. He killed them by using Kryptonite, this act kinda broke him a bit and he self-exiled himself to space for some months.

The second time was against Doomsday when Supes had to pull out all the stops to stop it. Cost him his life (at that time) too.

In the story "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, And The American Way" Superman proves to the Elite (a team of supers that kill their villains in several gruesome ways) and to the reader that the old fashioned ways of the Superheroes is what inspires others into doing the right thing.

Doctor Doom · June 18, 2017, 02:31:00 PM

Quote from: Yang Xiao Puns on June 18, 2017, 01:49:24 PM

Quote from: UpsetBelligerent on June 18, 2017, 02:18:08 AM
Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 01:56:27 AM
Quote from: UpsetBelligerent on June 18, 2017, 01:42:02 AM
Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 01:26:35 AM
Also
Super man is suppose to be hella American
A single man deciding who should live and die without trial reeks of dictatorship
That's the sentiment that let palps come to power.

Sometimes justice must be decided by the people.
Sometimes, the only solution is obvious.

In that right I think Supes killing Zod in MoS was a move he would make.
He's done it before.

When a villain has nearly ultimate power and is beyond containment or reason, prison is a non-option.
That's why the Phantom Zone exists, but he keeps the projector in his Fortress of Solitude, so it's not always possible to get to it without letting your enemy lay waste.

Plus scenes where he just get pissed the fuck off and tears through someone are dope.
Sure, he's not an inherently dark character, but the magnanimity he's known for is seen to fade when he becomes truly enraged, and that's I side of the character I love seeing.

It's only obvious when his views line up with our's

But that would be betraying his values

Everyone gets brought to justice
You don't get to make an exception just because a guy is tougher to deal with

That's his greatest struggle
Having the power of absolute dominance and choosing not to impose it
He has done it before, will do it again, and I like it when he does so long as the timing is right and it really is his best, or only, option.

Glad to hear your input though.
Post-Crisis Superman (aka the only good version of Superman) has only killed 2 times in his entire history. First time was when he executed three Kryptonian criminals that had escaped the Phantom Zone and the PZ projector was damaged and couldn't be repaired in time. He killed them by using Kryptonite, this act kinda broke him a bit and he self-exiled himself to space for some months.

The second time was against Doomsday when Supes had to pull out all the stops to stop it. Cost him his life (at that time) too.

In the story "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, And The American Way" Superman proves to the Elite (a team of supers that kill their villains in several gruesome ways) and to the reader that the old fashioned ways of the Superheroes is what inspires others into doing the right thing.

The pocket dimension thing got retcon'd by Infinite Crisis, which just leaves Doomsday, a completely nonsentient monster who debatably doesn't count. I'm cool with him killing off his most meh villain.

which is good because how fucked would it be if he executed zod and then turned around to lecture black about the sanctity of life

Ingy · June 18, 2017, 02:47:28 PM

Quote from: WarTurkey on June 18, 2017, 08:20:18 AM

Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 01:26:35 AM
Also
Super man is suppose to be hella American
A single man deciding who should live and die without trial reeks of dictatorship

Command by Negation

When a police officer kills a criminal in a shootout, is it dictatorship? When generals delineate who can and can't be killed in war through rules of engagement, is it dictatorship when some Private in Iraq kills a guy shooting back at him? The whole concept that Supes is somehow usurping the proper system of justice is ridiculous in the context of a comic world where the Justice League is literally an independent arm of western law and order. It's assumed that they have the authority to impose punishment as they deem appropriate.

OT: it's lazy writing now that it's been established that killing is the ultimate no-no in the DC world. The TV show Arrow actually recently recreated the scene with Green Arrow and Prometheus (holding a hostage, just like Zod), and they wrote a way for Oliver to not kill Prometheus but still save the hostage.

And on another note, this wouldn't even be a big discussion if comics in the last 20 years hadn't devolved into hyper-exaggerated grimdark fantasies where even benign villains are murdering psychopaths.

But you're not factoring in the fact that Superman has god like powers
A normal man who made a bad call can be brought to justice
But who's there to stop Superman except himself?

The Justice League (mainly just Batman) recognizes the danger of the Justice League
That's why they never interfere with political affairs
It would be really easy for them to just make every country in the world America

Turkey · June 18, 2017, 03:34:42 PM

Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 02:47:28 PM

But you're not factoring in the fact that Superman has god like powers
A normal man who made a bad call can be brought to justice
But who's there to stop Superman except himself?

Okay, this is assuming Supes killing an enemy was a bad call. Why? There are loads of godlike villains in DC that would be justified in being killed. The assumption is that the JL are generally strong enough to stop the bad guy without having to kill him. But even if Superman fucked up, like in Injustice, pretty much everyone else on the JL could go toe to toe with him: Wonder Woman, Flash, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern, Doctor Fate, Atom, Shazam...all of them could each hold their own, and combined it wouldn't even be a challenge. The idea that Superman is an unstoppable god is just bad writing and power creep.

Solonoid · June 18, 2017, 06:07:02 PM

Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 02:47:28 PM

Quote from: WarTurkey on June 18, 2017, 08:20:18 AM
Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 01:26:35 AM
Also
Super man is suppose to be hella American
A single man deciding who should live and die without trial reeks of dictatorship

Command by Negation

When a police officer kills a criminal in a shootout, is it dictatorship? When generals delineate who can and can't be killed in war through rules of engagement, is it dictatorship when some Private in Iraq kills a guy shooting back at him? The whole concept that Supes is somehow usurping the proper system of justice is ridiculous in the context of a comic world where the Justice League is literally an independent arm of western law and order. It's assumed that they have the authority to impose punishment as they deem appropriate.

OT: it's lazy writing now that it's been established that killing is the ultimate no-no in the DC world. The TV show Arrow actually recently recreated the scene with Green Arrow and Prometheus (holding a hostage, just like Zod), and they wrote a way for Oliver to not kill Prometheus but still save the hostage.

And on another note, this wouldn't even be a big discussion if comics in the last 20 years hadn't devolved into hyper-exaggerated grimdark fantasies where even benign villains are murdering psychopaths.

But you're not factoring in the fact that Superman has god like powers
A normal man who made a bad call can be brought to justice
But who's there to stop Superman except himself?

The Justice League (mainly just Batman) recognizes the danger of the Justice League
That's why they never interfere with political affairs
It would be really easy for them to just make every country in the world America

I think you're not factoring in that there are villains with god-like powers.
Plenty are peers to the Man of Steel.

Solonoid · June 18, 2017, 06:22:56 PM

Quote from: WarTurkey on June 18, 2017, 03:34:42 PM

Quote from: 化粧室はどこですか//~ on June 18, 2017, 02:47:28 PM
But you're not factoring in the fact that Superman has god like powers
A normal man who made a bad call can be brought to justice
But who's there to stop Superman except himself?

Okay, this is assuming Supes killing an enemy was a bad call. Why? There are loads of godlike villains in DC that would be justified in being killed. The assumption is that the JL are generally strong enough to stop the bad guy without having to kill him. But even if Superman fucked up, like in Injustice, pretty much everyone else on the JL could go toe to toe with him: Wonder Woman, Flash, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern, Doctor Fate, Atom, Shazam...all of them could each hold their own, and combined it wouldn't even be a challenge. The idea that Superman is an unstoppable god is just bad writing and power creep.

Superman has the potential to become a god, and even gods fear him.
However, it is very unlikely that he would have the time to absorb enough energy to become powerful enough to defeat them all.

In fact, I'd say that without seeking out a Blue Sun and charging for at least a full day, the Martian Manhunter and Captain Atom could handily defeat him just between the two of them.

Solonoid · June 18, 2017, 06:24:00 PM

I'd like to see Supes flying through space and out of nowhere get hit by a quasar beam.

That's a fuckton of solar energy.

Doctor Doom · June 18, 2017, 06:51:42 PM

not a fan of the solar radiation thing

i get the metaphor but it doesn't sit right that some writers take it more literally than they should

Cindy · June 18, 2017, 06:56:55 PM

No Kill Rule super heroes are liberal trash tbh

I understand it when it applies to hired goons in mobs, but when you're refusing to kill people who're responsible for the deaths of hundreds, thousands, or millions of others because "that would make you just like them", you're a dumb idiot.

Hollywood movies pull that shit all the time, too, and it makes me hurl.

Elai · June 18, 2017, 07:06:40 PM

Quote from: Cindy on June 18, 2017, 06:56:55 PM

liberal trash

Finally, we can agree on something.

Cindy · June 18, 2017, 07:10:21 PM

Quote from: Kakashi597 on June 18, 2017, 07:06:40 PM

Quote from: Cindy on June 18, 2017, 06:56:55 PM
liberal trash

Finally, we can agree on something.

Probably coming at it from different ends of the spectrum, but yeah

Verbatim · June 18, 2017, 07:24:05 PM

Quote from: Kakashi597 on June 18, 2017, 07:06:40 PM

Quote from: Cindy on June 18, 2017, 06:56:55 PM
liberal trash
Finally, we can agree on something.

you are both liberals

ffs