Is there a difference between hunting for sport and hunting for food?

🍁 Aria 🔮 · June 01, 2015, 02:47:37 AM

I'd like to, but you won't concede something as slight as the fact that one is more immoral than the other, regardless of if that difference is on a Planck-level or a macro-level. This is the thing I've been trying to state this entire time, and no matter what I do to say that, you keep bringing it back to veganism. The fact that you feel you need to convince me anything of veganism, again, shows how much of an assumption you're making of me.It's not that I don't want to discuss it because I have rigid views of it, I don't want to discuss it because:

1) It is irrelevant to the point I was making.
2) I just don't want to discuss it. I've talked it to death with Verb, I don't want to start it anew with someone else.

You asked a question and gave three options, and prompted users to provide justification for their view. If you don't think that I've appropriately done that, then this isn't a problem of veganism vs a traditional diet. It's a problem of utilitarianism and pragmatism.

Pendulate · June 01, 2015, 03:12:20 AM

Quote from: Prime Servitor on June 01, 2015, 02:47:37 AM

I'd like to, but you won't concede something as slight as the fact that one is more immoral than the other, regardless of if that difference is on a Planck-level or a macro-level.

But I'm happy to concede it, in the face of a compelling argument. I don't appreciate being called stubborn just because I don't find your argument convincing (rather we have been talking past each other for a while now, so I'm hardly going to be swayed by points that aren't pertinent to the question I'm asking).

Quote

This is the thing I've been trying to state this entire time, and no matter what I do to say that, you keep bringing it back to veganism.

I've gone and re-read my comments and the only times I talked about veganism were when you brought up store-bought meat. So I think that's a pretty unfair accusation, since I have been repeatedly trying to move the discussion away from it.

Quote

The fact that you feel you need to convince me anything of veganism, again, shows how much of an assumption you're making of me.

Where did I try to convince you of veganism? See, this is why I prefer the quote-by-quote format: I actually want answers to these questions.

Quote

this isn't a problem of veganism vs a traditional diet. It's a problem of utilitarianism and pragmatism.

But that's exactly what I've been stressing this whole time...! Yes, it's an ethical problem in the act of hunting itself. I was trying to discuss the ethics of the two examples I gave, in and of themselves; you diverted onto commercial farming, so I tried to put us back on course; you accuse me of secretly trying to promote veganism.

I'm not playing the victim here, but I honestly have no idea how it went downhill so fast.

Flee · June 01, 2015, 03:22:39 AM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · June 01, 2015, 03:30:39 AM

And I've been telling you over and over that I don't give a flip how bad hunting is. It is completely irrelevant to my initial post.

Here it is:
If you're going to kill something, don't waste it. there is the entire point, in one sentence.

Store-bought meat came up, again, as continuing the notion that you introduced pages before this: that you shouldn't hunt because you can just go to the store. I added that preservatives, plus poor farming standards, aren't exactly the best alternative just to try and help flesh it out a bit since it didn't catch on in the first place.

I'm not yelling at you over the internet right now, so you can calm down. I am frustrated, yes, but more because of this apparent communication barrier. We shouldn't be talking past each other, especially considering that this is all from an offhanded comment I made on the topic in an attempt to put it back on track and get it away from veganism and anti-natalism. If you would just take the sentiment at face value then it wouldn't be a problem; instead, you're reading into my posts as an opposition to the idea you're pushing.

And I know you're point: all hunting is bad, so don't do it. Eat plant-based food instead of meat. You can try to avoid using the word all you want, but it's incredibly obvious that it's the intent of this thread by this point. So stop sidestepping that please; I realize that it is very important to you and all, that's great. If you go back and look, I'm not even disagreeing. I'm just pointing out that life isn't black and white. There are shades of grey nearly dark as black.

Pendulate · June 01, 2015, 03:31:38 AM

Quote from: Flee on June 01, 2015, 03:22:39 AM

Without having read any of this thread: is this going to be about how even hunting for food provides fun because people enjoy eating meat?

Kind of. It's examining both forms of hunting outside of strict necessity; I'm arguing that hunting because you like stuffed trophies is no different from hunting because you like deer burgers. But I may be wrong.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · June 01, 2015, 03:32:00 AM

Quote from: Flee on June 01, 2015, 03:22:39 AM

Without having read any of this thread: is this going to be about how even hunting for food provides fun because people enjoy eating meat?

That's one of his points, yes. Another is that eating the animal itself is unnecessary (because plants), so hunting is just bad in general.

I've spent the last page saying that murder and torture are bad, sure, but that doesn't mean one can't be worse than the other.

Pendulate · June 01, 2015, 03:48:41 AM

Quote from: Prime Servitor on June 01, 2015, 03:30:39 AM

Here it is:
If you're going to kill something, don't waste it. there is the entire point, in one sentence.

Okay, but like I said, that was never the point of contention.

Quote

Store-bought meat came up, again, as continuing the notion that you introduced pages before this: that you shouldn't hunt because you can just go to the store. I added that preservatives, plus poor farming standards, aren't exactly the best alternative just to try and help flesh it out a bit since it didn't catch on in the first place.

I've explained why this is not relevant to the initial question in great detail, so I won't repeat myself here.

Quote

I am frustrated, yes, but more because of this apparent communication barrier. We shouldn't be talking past each other, especially considering that this is all from an offhanded comment I made on the topic in an attempt to put it back on track and get it away from veganism and anti-natalism.

Okay, then let's take the reigns: I agree that there are better and worse ways to utilise an animal's corpse after killing it. But this does not say anything about the act of killing itself. That's what I'm interested in discussing.

Is the unnecessary killing of an animal unethical regardless of which unnecessary purpose it is killed for?

Quote

And I know you're point: all hunting is bad, so don't do it.

I actually don't hold that view.

Quote

Eat plant-based food instead of meat.

I do hold that view, but that wasn't the purpose of this thread.

Quote

You can try to avoid using the word all you want, but it's incredibly obvious that it's the intent of this thread by this point.

Then you must have missed a recent thread on veganism that exceeded 300 posts and in which I had all the discussion I could possibly want to have on the topic. Please stop thinking that you have exposed some hidden agenda of mine. It simply isn't how I operate.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · June 01, 2015, 03:55:24 AM

I'm not "exposing" anything, I'm just get tired of this track here.

If that wasn't the point of contention, then don't ask if "there is a difference between hunting for sport and hunting for food". People have given differences, you've just handwaved them away as not being the point of contention. As I stated earlier, when I was more composed, you've either done an abysmal job of explaining your point from the start or you're pushing veganism.

Which you never address the part where I tell you that I'm not disagreeing. Killing things is bad, yes. I've just said that killing for sport is worse than killing for food sense you're not going to use it to the same extent. Hunting for sport creates more waste. That's what I voted for on the poll. If you wanted to talk about how unethical killing things was, then state that in the OP. It's very frustrating explaining why I chose my response to your original statement and being told that it's wrong based on the standards of an (until the past hour) unstated goal.

Pendulate · June 01, 2015, 04:13:45 AM

Quote from: Prime Servitor on June 01, 2015, 03:55:24 AM

If that wasn't the point of contention, then don't ask if "there is a difference between hunting for sport and hunting for food".

I didn't ask that. I asked: is the unnecessary killing of an animal unethical regardless of which unnecessary purpose it is killed for?

Quote

People have given differences, you've just handwaved them away as not being the point of contention.

I've been having this dialogue with you for nearly two hours now, during which I have addressed all of your comments and explained, in great detail and more than once, why some of your points are not relevant.

But if you want to shrug it off as "handwaving", well, fine, but it's pretty insincere.

Quote

As I stated earlier, when I was more composed, you've either done an abysmal job of explaining your point from the start or you're pushing veganism.

But my point is in my question above. And other users seem to have grasped it pretty well.

Quote

Which you never address the part where I tell you that I'm not disagreeing.

Okay.

Quote

Killing things is bad, yes. I've just said that killing for sport is worse than killing for food sense you're not going to use it to the same extent.

But you are disagreeing.

Quote

Hunting for sport creates more waste.

I don't see how, if the animal is stuffed and used as a trophy. At any rate the amount of wastage in each case would be a rather trivial matter.

Quote

If you wanted to talk about how unethical killing things was, then state that in the OP.

If you read the OP, you would have seen this:

*Also this is not intended to be a "go vegan" proselytism. I'm just interested in the ethics of hunting.

Quote

It's very frustrating explaining why I chose my response to your original statement and being told that it's wrong based on the standards of an (until the past hour) unstated goal.

Also in the OP:

what's the difference between killing an animal because you want their head mounted on your wall, and killing it because you want a steak on your plate?

Assuming in both cases that it is in developed society with access to supermarkets, obviously.

I'm sorry, but it seems you simply did not take the time to read my post, and thus you have been on a different page throughout our interchange.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · June 01, 2015, 04:28:17 AM

Pendulate, I'm going to leave it at this:

If you seriously think I didn't read "what's the difference between killing an animal because you want their head mounted on your wall, and killing it because you want a steak on your plate?", then I want you to read our discussion. Again. Because we touched on that multiple times. I gave you the difference; the problem here is that my view is utilitarian, and yours isn't. Please, I already feel insulted enough that a comment has dragged on this long, don't tell me that I didn't take the time to read a discussion I just spent the last three hours going through, and then taking part in.

You said that you're interested in the ethics of hunting. Cool, I (along with others) all gave our views. Mine happened to be that hunting for sport is worse. I gave you my reasoning for why hunting for a head on the wall is different (worse) than meat on a plate. It's, again, Utilitarian. You asked "is the unnecessary killing of an animal unethical regardless of which unnecessary purpose it is killed for?" much later than the OP, and please don't deny that. It's as easy as going and checking the OP again (which, giving the benefit of the doubt, I did).

At least Verb has the decency to call you a cunt and be done with it, instead of dragging a comment on for two pages and ending it with "you just didn't read my post".

Pendulate · June 01, 2015, 04:39:37 AM

But I'm a utilitarian myself, which is why I can see no difference between the two cases.

One is done for pleasure in the form of food.
One is done for pleasure in the form of trophy collection/enjoyment of the sport etc.

It would then befall you to explain why the pleasure derived from food is a greater utility than the pleasure derived from sport-hunting. Which I don't think you've managed to do, other than to dub food as an "essential good", which I addressed.

I think we agree on more than you realize, there are just pieces of the puzzle that haven't been fitted into place. But if you're done with this one, that's fine, I guess. Thanks for the discussion.

Naru · June 01, 2015, 04:46:47 AM

This thread

Poll

Well?

Is there a difference between hunting for sport and hunting for food?