I agree with Verb on this

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on September 18, 2016, 04:25:36 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on September 18, 2016, 04:12:03 PM

Exactly.

Yeah, but what if you just want your friend to know that GMOs aren't inherently evil but he refuses to see the light?

(hypothetical situation)

If you're best friends with someone, that's a blood bond that's more important than any values you hold.

That's why I believe you can only have one best friend, and not everyone always even finds that person.

100% right

Just yesterday I was talking to my sister and she told me I was her best friend.
I told her she was mine.

We disagree on a lot of things, she's definitely a lot more liberal than I am, but we have always supported each other.
That's not to say we haven't fought or been upset with each other, and we certainly did a lot of petty stuff to spite each other growing up.

Truly being best friends goes beyond something language can describe, but I would put it this way:
Your best friend is someone who is always there for you, no matter how much they might disagree or find disdain in your actions.

There is one thing we agree 100% though, and that is that genetic modification is the future of life on earth.

Quote from: Heaven 17 on September 18, 2016, 04:31:54 PM

Quote from: N i g g e r s on September 18, 2016, 04:29:58 PM

Quote from: Heaven 17 on September 18, 2016, 04:26:54 PM

Quote from: N i g g e r s on September 18, 2016, 04:25:25 PM

So if you met someone who was respectable but then 1O years later turned into a junkie rapist, you would still be loyal to them for some arbitrary honor code?

really would depend on the level of friendship that was established before the 10 year absence.

but if i considered them a good friend, probably. my good friends are my family and you don't disown family, no matter what.

Why not

Actions from way back don't define you now
People change
You would be dragging yourself down just for memories

because the things you went through together transcend any values you have.

if for nothing else, it's blackmail -- you don't turn against your friends because they have dirty info on you that you don't want released. i don't like to think of that, but it's definitely a part of it.

you don't necessarily even need to continue being active friends with this person if what they do turns you off from them so much.

But those values are what brought you together and hold you together
If a person strays from everything you loved them for, then what's left keeping you together other than memories

if i chose my friends based on how closely the share my beliefs and values, i'd have no friends. friendship isn't about duplicating yourself.

Quote from: Coco on September 18, 2016, 04:25:58 PM

That's a yes-man, not a friend.

you have a poor definition of friendship if yours doesn't include loyalty

I'm pretty loyal when it matters.  You've got a pretty selfish definition if you expect friends to blindly approve of everything you do and heat up every time you're forced to have a speck of introspection.

Quote from: Heaven 17 on September 18, 2016, 04:28:15 PM

Quote from: Coco on September 18, 2016, 04:25:58 PM

That's a yes-man, not a friend.

you have a poor definition of friendship if yours doesn't include loyalty

I'm pretty loyal when it matters.  You've got a pretty selfish definition if you expect friends to blindly approve of everything you do and heat up every time you're forced to have a speck of introspection.

no such thing as "pretty loyal"

theres loyalty and then theres nothing. theres no middle ground here.

but yeah, i expect what i give in a friendship and if i cant come to you with anything than how much do i really trust you? how close can we be?

Quote from: Heaven 17 on September 18, 2016, 04:46:47 PM

Quote from: N i g g e r s on September 18, 2016, 04:36:10 PM

Quote from: Heaven 17 on September 18, 2016, 04:31:54 PM

Quote from: N i g g e r s on September 18, 2016, 04:29:58 PM

Quote from: Heaven 17 on September 18, 2016, 04:26:54 PM

Quote from: N i g g e r s on September 18, 2016, 04:25:25 PM

So if you met someone who was respectable but then 1O years later turned into a junkie rapist, you would still be loyal to them for some arbitrary honor code?

really would depend on the level of friendship that was established before the 10 year absence.

but if i considered them a good friend, probably. my good friends are my family and you don't disown family, no matter what.

Why not

Actions from way back don't define you now
People change
You would be dragging yourself down just for memories

because the things you went through together transcend any values you have.

if for nothing else, it's blackmail -- you don't turn against your friends because they have dirty info on you that you don't want released. i don't like to think of that, but it's definitely a part of it.

you don't necessarily even need to continue being active friends with this person if what they do turns you off from them so much.

But those values are what brought you together and hold you together
If a person strays from everything you loved them for, then what's left keeping you together other than memories

if i chose my friends based on how closely the share my beliefs and values, i'd have no friends. friendship isn't about duplicating yourself.

Even then
If everything you love them for is gone, holding on for memories is just stupid

the only thing i love about this hypothetical person is their loyalty.

that's enough in my eyes.

being a rapists or meth head doesnt mean i dont care for them. my father used to beat my mother, but he's still my father. with a friend, its no different.

Quote from: Heaven 17 on September 18, 2016, 04:53:16 PM

Quote from: challengerX on September 18, 2016, 04:50:33 PM

Quote from: Heaven 17 on September 18, 2016, 04:48:26 PM

Quote from: challengerX on September 18, 2016, 04:46:33 PM

Do you honestly think a person who cheats on his wife is going to be there for you? He has no loyalty to a woman he looked in the eye and said he'd be with forever, what the fuck makes you think he has your back?

No. I get what you're saying, but there's a line.

tbh im pretty sure she knows about his cheating and knew about it before she married him. i dont think its a big secret.

but yeah, i do think so. he doesnt give a shit about women.

I can't say I could ever consider a person like that a friend. Friendship is more than just loyalty. What if you're friends with the wife?

It's a lot more complicated than what you're saying. I wouldn't tell his wife, but I would keep my distance.

well in this instance im not friends with his wife. i dont even know her. if i was, it would depend on who i was more of a friend with.

Then doesn't your whole premise fall apart either way?

yeah maybe you're right

maybe i've got some more thinking to do

There's a huge difference between supporting someone and being their servant.  Being someone's yes-man keeps them from ever having to grow or take responsibility for themselves.  It's selfish of them, and unhelpful of you.

I have some friends who're like that, and it's obvious that they're thin-skinned and defensive, so they keep people close to justify their blatantly wrong actions.  I still have their backs, accept them, and support them, but they're not always right.  Your problem isn't with not being able to go to your friends: your problem is that you can't take criticism.

i don't know why you think that's what i'm saying

and i think you can only really be someone's friend if you support them in everything -- even when they're wrong.

and i think that's what defines friendship

Because I have/had friends that fit your original description.  They expect loyalty: for other people to validate them, even when they're 100% in the wrong.

It's pretty selfish and immature to blame people for not blindly having your back before accepting the notion that you might be wrong.  If you're the kind of person to stubbornly drop other people from your life or devalue relationships because you can't accept your own flaws and influences on other people, you have a lot more problems in regards to friendship than the person who's not loyal enough.

Someone who's cheating on their wife isn't someone that I'd like to be friends with. At the minimum, I'd express how upset I was with their behavior and encourage them to, you know, stop doing it. I don't think it's accurate to say that friendship is defined by unquestioned loyalty, friendship is more so making sure that you look out for that individual and care for them. If they're doing something wrong, the friendliest thing you can do is urge them to stop and warn them of the consequences.

If you're just going to sit back and let your friend do such a morally objectionable thing without question, then you are a poor friend.

Quote from: Heaven 17 on September 18, 2016, 08:25:20 PM

Quote from: Winy on September 18, 2016, 08:22:36 PM

If they're doing something wrong, the friendliest thing you can do is urge them to stop and warn them of the consequences.

but i am doing that


see i'm having trouble coming to terms with this whole thing because i happen to like the guy, and i want him to be my friend. he's definitely someone who rewards loyalty with loyalty, in that, he'll always have your back, and with my current lifestyle, that's something i could really use. but i have moral reservations about his actions.

Wait so this dude isn't actually your friend?

I could understand not breaking up a friendship over your best childhood friend cheating on his wife once, drunk, and him being regretful. But you don't even know him that well? What's the point?

no but it lead me on to this whole thought process because i recently reconnected with an old friend who is kinda like that, and in general have just been giving it more thought. i only made the example in the op for arguments sake.

Quote from: Arren on September 18, 2016, 08:27:24 PM

I don't support my family when they do stupid things

define support

I misread this as "definite support" so I at first ignored it. Upon revision I realize I might need glasses.

Say one of my family members stole a car or killed someone. I'm not going to take action to cover up their mistakes or validate their choices.
How do you define support?