The Original Star Wars trilogy

How To Train Your Dragon 1 and 2

Halo 1-3

the original star wars trilogy's ending was ruined for me as soon as episode seven was announced

like, oh

there's still sith

so that happy ending was worthless

I think that no matter how hard both sides try, there will always be Sith and Jedi.

Sith and Jedi are Yin and Yang, they will always coexist. The problem is that when one tips the balance in either direction, the galaxy ends up in chaos. It's a problem of balance; the period following the Empire's downfall was peaceful, as was that following the events of KOToR II and (although under extreme pressure due to the number of both sides) TOR.

But two out of three of those aren't canon anymore so there's no point in referencing them as evidence to a claim.

no, there is not

haha, neener neener

Unlike some people, I don't care if it's noncanon or not. As long as the books and games still exist and continue to be sold, the content and lore can still be discussed on that level. Being relabeled as "Legends" doesn't change that unless you're speaking of "canon lore", in which case it doesn't apply.

Essentially, all the Legends stuff is on the same level canon-wise, so it's silly to think you can't make claims for or against the Legends lore within the confines of that content.

yeah, yeah
it still makes me giddy to know it's not canon anymore

About the jedi/sith thing though, that's just what I don't like about Star Wars. It's just arbitrary. It would feel less silly if the sith weren't card-carrying villains. Their side is literally called "the dark side". That's what makes lines like, "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" so stupid and laughable. Like, your side is NAMED after evil! You're evil! Duh!

It's not like red and blue, or democrat/republican, where it's kinda ambiguous. You know who to root for right away. If it were a better franchise, they'd have ways to sort of sympathize with the sith in some form or another. The movies did a piss-poor job of that. I just chalk it up to it being for... you know, kids. A lot of people get all emotional if I say that, though.

It's more of an incredibly slight undertone of the movies that's expanded upon more in Legends material, but the Jedi Order is incredibly strict in their code. If a Jedi isn't held to an inhuman (figuratively, given that many Jedi aren't human) level of knowledge, understanding, and a blind, unwavering support of the Council then they are banned from the order or are stuck under a glass ceiling. Another fault is that the Jedi Order is generally indecisive lend themselves to intentional ignorance of things to remain pure of mind. They are essentially zealots with telekinesis and laser swords.

On the other end of the spectrum, the Sith are ruthless, untrustworthy, and eternally power-hungry. It was shown quite clearly in the movies that they are the "bad" guys and that they are simply the opposite of everything righteous.

That's why the Gray Jedi is the best position to take; it admits that you can't simply hide from reality and thus you must understand it while at the same time shunning the use of the Force as a tool for evil. But as in real life, very few reach a truly balanced position intentionally or not. That's why the Force can only exist balanced in two circumstances:

1) All true Jedi and Sith (individuals who subscribe totally, or nearly so, to the doctrines) are eradicated. This only works for a short term, as the knowledge cannot be completely destroyed and the ideals will always be rediscovered by force-sensitives.

2) Jedi and Sith exist on equal standing in terms of power and control.

It's more of an incredibly slight undertone of the movies that's expanded upon more in Legends material, but the Jedi Order is incredibly strict in their code. If a Jedi isn't held to an inhuman (figuratively, given that many Jedi aren't human) level of knowledge, understanding, and a blind, unwavering support of the Council then they are banned from the order or are stuck under a glass ceiling. Another fault is that the Jedi Order is generally indecisive lend themselves to intentional ignorance of things to remain pure of mind. They are essentially zealots with telekinesis and laser swords.

On the other end of the spectrum, the Sith are ruthless, untrustworthy, and eternally power-hungry. It was shown quite clearly in the movies that they are the "bad" guys and that they are simply the opposite of everything righteous.

That's why the Gray Jedi is the best position to take; it admits that you can't simply hide from reality and thus you must understand it while at the same time shunning the use of the Force as a tool for evil. But as in real life, very few reach a truly balanced position intentionally or not. That's why the Force can only exist balanced in two circumstances:

1) All true Jedi and Sith (individuals who subscribe totally, or nearly so, to the doctrines) are eradicated. This only works for a short term, as the knowledge cannot be completely destroyed and the ideals will always be rediscovered by force-sensitives.

2) Jedi and Sith exist on equal standing in terms of power and control.

i mean, it's great that you know all this, it's nice that the EU has made efforts to make the universe more graspable for people like me who find the silly light/dark dichotomy to be trite and uncreative, and i find your dedication to the franchise admirable, but

that's just another problem i see with it
the fact that so much of the films' logic was sort of dependent on outside sources within the EU to make sense?...well, not dependent, but... supplemented by and made more sense from

fight club
requiem for a dream
chronicle
gone girl

some of my favorite film stories of all time
they... don't need an EU to help make sense of all its stuff

i realize that's not what the EU is originally intended for--it's originally intended to make money, because star wars is the biggest cash cow franchise of all time--but i'm just saying, because of it, whenever i think about star wars, i get an intense wave of i-don't-give-a-shit syndrome due to just the staggering amount of shit that i have to endure just to justify every idiosyncrasy in the films that wouldn't really add up if you didn't play a video game or read a book

if there weren't people like you to condense all of this stuff for me, i would never, ever know

I'm not sure if we actually know the allegiance of Episode 7's villain, but I'm holding out hope that it doesn't retcon ROTJ's conclusion. >.>

the narrator clearly said "THE DARK SIDE" as soon as he appeared

i mean, i think that's pretty definitive, but maybe he'll pull a heel-face turn or something

i also assumed that by "villain" you were referring to that kylo ren guy, with the stupid crossguard saber in the trailer

that's who you were talking about, right

i also assumed that by "villain" you were referring to that kylo ren guy, with the stupid crossguard saber in the trailer

that's who you were talking about, right

Yes.

For the sake of brevity, a sci-fi/fantasy movie series like Star Wars cannot include every little piece of information like an encyclopedia. That's one of the good things about having a solid core with extended material: you can simply stop with the movies, or if something about them interest you, it's easy enough to find more about or like it in the hundreds of books and games available.

That's not exactly what I meant. I'm not trying to say that the entire Star Wars universe should've been jampacked into only the six core films... Merely, the question that a lot of prequel haters tend to ask. "Was this a story that needed to be told?"

and that's up to you, but for me, the answer is a giant "no"

the EU, for me, just created headaches and eye-rolls whenever someone says, "oh, that's explored more in the EU" whenever i point out something stupid in the original trilogy (like the light/dark dichotomy)

Some things are better off left in the dark. Instead, we know literally more than we ever needed to know about every single person who ever spent one second of screen time in the films. But the stuff that actually matters? The stuff that doesn't make sense? It's not explained in the movies. That's the important stuff that SHOULD be in the movies, but... isn't.

so, idk
it's always going to be a clusterfuck franchise to me

not a bad franchise, but
not a good one either
certainly not something i'd personally spend much time on

343i's Halo is an example of how not to do an EU; if you want to follow the story, it is required for you to read the books to know a number of characters or why certain events are happening. You can't just play the game and be done to understand everything that's happening, there's just a lot of information that can only be found in the books.

yeah, that's irritating, but more forgivable in my perspective just because it's so much smaller

and thus, more accessible
and not a cluster

I never remember anything that just didn't make sense (in the original trilogy, anyway); everything was either explained to the point that it was understood on a basic level or could be solved through some process of thought

well, you have to understand that i resent the original trilogy

so whenever i watch it, i do it with an extremely critical eye
and i notice a lot of stupid shit (most of which, again, i chalk up to--"meh. kid's movie")

Empire Strikes Back is overrated and Return of the Jedi was disappointing, yes, but A New Hope will always hold a place in my heart for being one of a few well done sci-fi/fantasy films.

return of the jedi was actually the best imo
no real problems with it

how was it disappointing? i know it's often cited to be the worst of the original trilogy, but like... why

is it the ewoks
are people really that petty

The relationship between Luke and Leia, the thread we had a while back about the celebrations following the Death Star's destruction, the sheer incompetence in the design of the Empire's technology if ropes and spears can destroy their tanks, and so on. It's not a BAD movie, not by a long shot, but it was a bit underwhelming.

i liked return of the jedi more for its emotional impact and symbolism--namely when luke meets the emperor before he fights his dad. that scene is so cool, the image of it is like, permanently engraved in my mind. it's just one of those super memorable scenes. i mean, i didn't care much for the characters, but i knew i was supposed to, and i'm good at displacing... care, i guess, when i have to. it was just overall a lot more exciting than... anything that happened in the last two movies.

all the stuff you mentioned seems nitpicky, except the spears vs. tanks thing, i guess

but yeah, fuck empire.
a new hope just wasn't at all memorable to me.

the first two of the original trilogy, i have trouble not falling asleep in the middle of