This is something I see every day. It's consistent with almost everyone I speak with.

I would argue the problem is our materialistic society, that encourages people to make poor financial decisions. Yes, capitalism encourages this, but renovating our entire economic system seems a little drastic. In my subjective experience, the people with less disposable income are often the ones spending more on shit like lottery tickets, cigarettes, alcohol, etc.

By being immoral and taking advantage of other people, yeah. You can't get rich without stealing from your workers (charging more for a product than you paid your workers to create it.)

There is no way to change this while still being a capitalist country.

Maybe a factory worker shouldn't be "rich," (no one can be rich without making others poorer) but no citizen should have to sacrifice one major aspect of their life just to make ends meet. The major aspects being: family, mental health, and physical health. You can't do that if you're working 12 hours days.

Obviously subjective, but I agree people should have a choice, which I believe they do. The average American work week is 47 hours. Accounting for sleep, you get more hours to yourself than work.

"Go live somewhere else you fucking commie"

All I was trying to point out was that the problems you're trying to fix are far more prevalent in the systems you're proposing we move towards.

No actually, I'd like to live in a world where people get 3 days off a week, a month vacation off a year, leave at 4:30 every day and actually get to see their families and loved ones on a consistent basis. This is not unrealistic, because (most of) Canada, Europe and other developed parts of the world are like this. Not just the socially democratic parts of Europe, either.

Judging by Fedorekd's posts, Europe doesn't seem to have this all figured out either.

I would argue the problem is our materialistic society, that encourages people to make poor financial decisions. Yes, capitalism encourages this, but renovating our entire economic system seems a little drastic. In my subjective experience, the people with less disposable income are often the ones spending more on shit like lottery tickets, cigarettes, alcohol, etc.

"Everyone less successful than me is either stupid or lazy."

Dude cmon characterising poor people as being poor because of their own decisions is just bullshit and demonstrates a complete lack of experience on your part.

I also don't blame people for dreaming of winning the lottery. Most do, not because they want to be rich (most of them say they'd still work, and whether you think they would or not is irrelevant) but because they want to get above water and not be stressed out all the time about making ends meet. The stress also goes into how much our societies decide to drink and abuse substances. "I have one day off a week, I'm going to get as fucked up as possible and try to enjoy the miniscule amount of time I have to myself before I have to go back to my shitty job."

There is no way to change this while still being a capitalist country.

There are ways to combat it though (like what I'm suggesting), and I'm not really saying we should change it; I'm just making sure you understand the reality of capitalism.

Obviously subjective, but I agree people should have a choice, which I believe they do. The average American work week is 47 hours. Accounting for sleep, you get more hours to yourself than work.

It's not enough to realistically balance family life, mental health and physical health. 47 hours a week is more than 8 hours a day if you work Monday to Friday. Most humans should only be awake 16 hours a day. If you work 9-10 hours per day, you have six hours to balance your diet, your family life and your own sanity. I don't know how you don't see the problem here. Historically people have never worked this much before. I'm not sure how anyone can defend what is pretty much straight-up slavery.

All I was trying to point out was that the problems you're trying to fix are far more prevalent in the systems you're proposing we move towards.

So what, we just do nothing? No, we emulate societies where it does work.

Judging by Fedorekd's posts, Europe doesn't seem to have this all figured out either.

That's because the UK is just a slightly better version of America and tries to emulate it too much. Portugal, Spain, France, Germany... these countries aren't perfect but they certainly have a far less depressed society and a much larger emphasis on worker's rights and the separation person from job.

"Everyone less successful than me is either stupid or lazy."

Dude cmon characterising poor people as being poor because of their own decisions is just bullshit and demonstrates a complete lack of experience on your part.

Being bad with finances is a factor whether you want to believe it or not. I have two coworkers that get paid the same, and one has a house and property, a vehicle, a smartphone, and disposable income while the other one would say he can't afford any of that, yet every morning he spends ~$20+ on lottery tickets. I'm not trying to generalize everyone, which is why I said it's my subjective experience, but it's a factor. Doing the exact opposite and saying they're all victims isn't any more enlightened of an opinion.

I want to elaborate on this further but I have to get off for now.

I also don't blame people for dreaming of winning the lottery. Most do, not because they want to be rich (most of them say they'd still work, and whether you think they would or not is irrelevant) but because they want to get above water and not be stressed out all the time about making ends meet. The stress also goes into how much our societies decide to drink and abuse substances. "I have one day off a week, I'm going to get as fucked up as possible and try to enjoy the miniscule amount of time I have to myself before I have to go back to my shitty job."

I've heard most people that win big on the lottery blow through it and end up poor again.

There are ways to combat it though (like what I'm suggesting), and I'm not really saying we should change it; I'm just making sure you understand the reality of capitalism.

Yes I understand how capitalism works.

Historically people have never worked this much before. I'm not sure how anyone can defend what is pretty much straight-up slavery.

This is just straight up false. Where are you getting this information?

So what, we just do nothing? No, we emulate societies where it does work.

That's because the UK is just a slightly better version of America and tries to emulate it too much. Portugal, Spain, France, Germany... these countries aren't perfect but they certainly have a far less depressed society and a much larger emphasis on worker's rights and the separation person from job.

All of these countries have a far smaller average income than the United States. I'm not too familiar with these countries, so I might be missing something, but working fewer hours just to get less income doesn't seem like a solution.

Quote from: Killua on October 03, 2018, 09:04:58 AM

But what if the high-earners just pile that money and keep it out of circulation, making everyone else poorer? Shouldn't the money be put back into circulation somehow - say, through the wages paid to workers in the public sector?

In this scenario, yes. But this trend isn’t happening in the United States or any similar countries that I’m aware of.

isn't like 50% of all wealth owned by the top 1%

every time i read about some new thing jeff bezos does i immediately google "jeff bezos assassination attempts"

Post-depression, the average american work week consisted of about 35 hours a week up until recently.

Are you sure that number isn't including part-time workers and the unemployed? 35 is roughly the current work week, including them.

Things also cost a lot less in these countries. The solution here is for the government to subisdise the cost of living which they can only do through taxation. You don't make as much in Portugal, but you also don't need as much.

Accounting for this discrepancy, America is still doing better than these countries.
https://www.worlddata.info/cost-of-living.php

Maverick in here flexing

Are you sure that number isn't including part-time workers and the unemployed? 35 is roughly the current work week, including them.

Not sure to be honest with you. Just what I've heard from older generations.

Accounting for this discrepancy, America is still doing better than these countries.
https://www.worlddata.info/cost-of-living.php

That fails to take into account the cultural differences that drastically affect the cost of living there. Most people live in homes with large families, it's not really a "thing" to move out on your own. Everyone kind of pitches in where they need to.

From what I’ve read, there is an upward trend since the ‘70s, but it pretty much only affects higher earners (salaried workers). In the states, it’s still disadvantageous for businesses to go above 35-40 for hourly work.

Right, because past a certain threshold you have to pay hourly workers more money. Hourly workers aren't making enough to live. Salary workers aren't making enough to live either, but they're doing a little better.

Doesn’t this just support my point if they’re spending less on living and America still
has better purchasing power?

You'll have to spell it out for me if it does, because that's not really the way I've experienced it.

When I travelled to Portugal, I was blown away. They work fewer hours, get more time off, and live more comfortably. I started to think about living there but I thought I had maybe romanticised life in Europe. It wasn't until several of my coworkers confided in me their problems with living here (one was from a northern European country, one was from Romania, and the other was from Egypt.) What they said was pretty much exactly how I felt. It was volunteered information, too, I didn't guide them into it. Yeah sure their currency isn't as powerful as the United States, but these people have close relationships with their families, meaningful work prospects and superb work/life balance. It's really hard for the average North American to imagine because it's divorced from what we experience.

In America it's just the shitty rat-race to make enough money to stay above water, where in other places that's not really the case. We're a depressed society that relies on substances and escapist experiences to get by.