Quote from: Ingy on May 07, 2020, 04:38:18 PMQuote from: Mordo on May 07, 2020, 04:18:13 PMQuote from: Ingy on May 07, 2020, 10:53:09 AMThere seems to be a weird double standard with “black” culture where if you bring up negative differences (higher crime rate, single motherhood, school dropout, etc), you’re racist but at the same time you’re expected to acknowledge and respect positive aspects of “black” culture (hip hop, civil rights movement, the use of the word nigga) This is going straight into my "shit racists say who don't think they're racist" folder.Kinda easy when you’re already assuming motivationsThere's nothing to assume. You just reduced an entire ethnicities identity into one monolithic, inseparable entity by categorizing it as "black culture". Pretty racist if you ask me. What exactly is "black culture" by the way? Is this including Caribbean culture? African culture? Black British culture? Or do you just think the hippety hop music and gang banging encapsulates everything.
Quote from: Mordo on May 07, 2020, 04:18:13 PMQuote from: Ingy on May 07, 2020, 10:53:09 AMThere seems to be a weird double standard with “black” culture where if you bring up negative differences (higher crime rate, single motherhood, school dropout, etc), you’re racist but at the same time you’re expected to acknowledge and respect positive aspects of “black” culture (hip hop, civil rights movement, the use of the word nigga) This is going straight into my "shit racists say who don't think they're racist" folder.Kinda easy when you’re already assuming motivations
Quote from: Ingy on May 07, 2020, 10:53:09 AMThere seems to be a weird double standard with “black” culture where if you bring up negative differences (higher crime rate, single motherhood, school dropout, etc), you’re racist but at the same time you’re expected to acknowledge and respect positive aspects of “black” culture (hip hop, civil rights movement, the use of the word nigga) This is going straight into my "shit racists say who don't think they're racist" folder.
There seems to be a weird double standard with “black” culture where if you bring up negative differences (higher crime rate, single motherhood, school dropout, etc), you’re racist but at the same time you’re expected to acknowledge and respect positive aspects of “black” culture (hip hop, civil rights movement, the use of the word nigga)
Quote from: Ingy on May 07, 2020, 04:37:58 PMQuote from: Verbatim on May 07, 2020, 04:17:08 PMQuote from: Ingy on May 07, 2020, 04:01:13 PMThis seems kinda hypocritical seeing how you said that people should rise above natural instincts and here you're saying people shouldn't question their emotional responses at allwhen did i say they they shouldn't question themThat was the implication I got when you were refuting the point that people should teach themselves to not be offendedi don't think it's unreasonable to point out that not everybody has the time or patience to do whatever zen mumbo jumbo that chronic just loves to babble aboutpeople should obviously be less sensitive, but to call it a "choice" is just extremely reductive and unfairlike, that's all i'm saying
Quote from: Verbatim on May 07, 2020, 04:17:08 PMQuote from: Ingy on May 07, 2020, 04:01:13 PMThis seems kinda hypocritical seeing how you said that people should rise above natural instincts and here you're saying people shouldn't question their emotional responses at allwhen did i say they they shouldn't question themThat was the implication I got when you were refuting the point that people should teach themselves to not be offended
Quote from: Ingy on May 07, 2020, 04:01:13 PMThis seems kinda hypocritical seeing how you said that people should rise above natural instincts and here you're saying people shouldn't question their emotional responses at allwhen did i say they they shouldn't question them
This seems kinda hypocritical seeing how you said that people should rise above natural instincts and here you're saying people shouldn't question their emotional responses at all
i don't think it's unreasonable to point out that not everybody has the time or patience to do whatever zen mumbo jumbo that chronic just loves to babble aboutpeople should obviously be less sensitive, but to call it a "choice" is just extremely reductive and unfairlike, that's all i'm saying
Imagine you live with your parents who use curse words all the time without batting an eye.Then during a Skype call, you drop an f bomb or something and your parents give you 'the eye' or even start shouting at you for cursing in their home.
Imagine you live with your parents who use curse words all the time without batting an eye. Then during a Skype call, you drop an f bomb or something and your parents give you 'the eye' or even start shouting at you for cursing in their home.
Galinsky, Adam D, Kurt Hugenberg, Carla Groom, and Galen V Bodenhausen. “The Reappropriation Of Stigmatizing Labels: Implications For Social Identity.” Research on Managing Groups and Teams Identity Issues in Groups, n.d., 221–56. https://doi.org/10.1016/s1534-0856(02)05009-0. QuoteAbstract:We present a model of reappropriation, the phenomenon whereby a stigmatized group revalues an externally imposed negative label by self-consciously referring to itself in terms of that label. The model specifies the causes and consequences of reappropriation as well as the essential conditions necessary for reappropriation to be effective. To place the concept of reappropriation in proper context, we begin by discussing the roots of stigma and the mediating role played by social categorization and social identity in the realization of stigma’s deleterious effects. We also discuss the strategies available to both individuals and groups by which stigmatized individuals can enhance their devalued social identities. We provide a discussion of two historical cases of reappropriation and some preliminary empirical evidence concerning the consequences of self-labeling and attempting to reappropriate a stigmatizing label. Finally we discuss the implications of the model for groups and teams,both within and outside of organizations.
Abstract:We present a model of reappropriation, the phenomenon whereby a stigmatized group revalues an externally imposed negative label by self-consciously referring to itself in terms of that label. The model specifies the causes and consequences of reappropriation as well as the essential conditions necessary for reappropriation to be effective. To place the concept of reappropriation in proper context, we begin by discussing the roots of stigma and the mediating role played by social categorization and social identity in the realization of stigma’s deleterious effects. We also discuss the strategies available to both individuals and groups by which stigmatized individuals can enhance their devalued social identities. We provide a discussion of two historical cases of reappropriation and some preliminary empirical evidence concerning the consequences of self-labeling and attempting to reappropriate a stigmatizing label. Finally we discuss the implications of the model for groups and teams,both within and outside of organizations.
Quote from: 🍁 Aria 🔮 on May 07, 2020, 05:31:14 PMGalinsky, Adam D, Kurt Hugenberg, Carla Groom, and Galen V Bodenhausen. “The Reappropriation Of Stigmatizing Labels: Implications For Social Identity.” Research on Managing Groups and Teams Identity Issues in Groups, n.d., 221–56. https://doi.org/10.1016/s1534-0856(02)05009-0. QuoteAbstract:We present a model of reappropriation, the phenomenon whereby a stigmatized group revalues an externally imposed negative label by self-consciously referring to itself in terms of that label. The model specifies the causes and consequences of reappropriation as well as the essential conditions necessary for reappropriation to be effective. To place the concept of reappropriation in proper context, we begin by discussing the roots of stigma and the mediating role played by social categorization and social identity in the realization of stigma’s deleterious effects. We also discuss the strategies available to both individuals and groups by which stigmatized individuals can enhance their devalued social identities. We provide a discussion of two historical cases of reappropriation and some preliminary empirical evidence concerning the consequences of self-labeling and attempting to reappropriate a stigmatizing label. Finally we discuss the implications of the model for groups and teams,both within and outside of organizations.It won't let us read this.
"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.
Quote from: Mordo on May 08, 2020, 09:53:27 AM"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.Are you even here to discuss anything or just splurge
Quote from: Ingy on May 08, 2020, 12:18:53 PMQuote from: Mordo on May 08, 2020, 09:53:27 AM"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.Are you even here to discuss anything or just splurgeWhat exactly is there to discuss, pray tell? Either you're a racist who thinks it's acceptable for white people to say the word, however much you want to sugar coat it with bullshit rationale, or you aren't.
Quote from: Mordo on May 08, 2020, 12:24:47 PMQuote from: Ingy on May 08, 2020, 12:18:53 PMQuote from: Mordo on May 08, 2020, 09:53:27 AM"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.Are you even here to discuss anything or just splurgeWhat exactly is there to discuss, pray tell? Either you're a racist who thinks it's acceptable for white people to say the word, however much you want to sugar coat it with bullshit rationale, or you aren't.You mean to say that a white person is racist if they say it, no matter what the context is?
Unless you're an actor in a performance piece that is designed to portray that kind of role, (which 99% of the population isn't) then no, there's not much context which justifies a white person to use the word.
Quote from: Mordo on May 08, 2020, 12:29:59 PMUnless you're an actor in a performance piece that is designed to portray that kind of role, (which 99% of the population isn't) then no, there's not much context which justifies a white person to use the word.How is a word inherently racist? It literally only has meaning because we ascribe meaning to it. If a person has absolutely no racist intentions when saying the word "nigger/nigga" then how does that mean that person hates black people or believes their race is superior?If you have a group of friends of various races who all use the word "nigga" as a synonym for "dude" or "bro," how does a white person in that group doing the same thing a racist act?I genuinely want to know your logic behind that belief.
Quote from: Ingy on May 08, 2020, 12:18:53 PMQuote from: Mordo on May 08, 2020, 09:53:27 AM"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.Are you even here to discuss anything or just splurgeWhat exactly is there to discuss, pray tell? Either you're a racist who thinks it's acceptable for white people to say the word, however much you want to sugar coat it with bullshit rationale, or you aren't.It's not exactly a conversation brimming with heated debate.
Quote from: Aether on May 08, 2020, 12:39:41 PMQuote from: Mordo on May 08, 2020, 12:29:59 PMUnless you're an actor in a performance piece that is designed to portray that kind of role, (which 99% of the population isn't) then no, there's not much context which justifies a white person to use the word.How is a word inherently racist? It literally only has meaning because we ascribe meaning to it. If a person has absolutely no racist intentions when saying the word "nigger/nigga" then how does that mean that person hates black people or believes their race is superior?If you have a group of friends of various races who all use the word "nigga" as a synonym for "dude" or "bro," how does a white person in that group doing the same thing a racist act?I genuinely want to know your logic behind that belief.what if, instead of racist, he just said "extremely impolite"would that be a problem, or do you still want to say the word without being seen as impolite
what if, instead of racist, he just said "extremely impolite"would that be a problem, or do you still want to say the word without being seen as impolite
Quote from: Mordo on May 08, 2020, 12:24:47 PMQuote from: Ingy on May 08, 2020, 12:18:53 PMQuote from: Mordo on May 08, 2020, 09:53:27 AM"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.Are you even here to discuss anything or just splurgeWhat exactly is there to discuss, pray tell? Either you're a racist who thinks it's acceptable for white people to say the word, however much you want to sugar coat it with bullshit rationale, or you aren't.It's not exactly a conversation brimming with heated debate.Well there is a word that perpetuates an us vs them situation when the goal is to not perpetuate an us vs them situationJust on its face having a word one group can use and another group can't is inherently discriminatory but on the other hand, the group also has been oppressed for centuries so there is history behind the wordYou accused me of boiling down an entire ethnicity to a single entity and here you are making this a binary argument with no nuance
How is a word inherently racist?
I just don't understand how, for instance, I would be racist for using the word while having this discussion.
Quote from: Ingy on May 08, 2020, 12:55:01 PMQuote from: Mordo on May 08, 2020, 12:24:47 PMQuote from: Ingy on May 08, 2020, 12:18:53 PMQuote from: Mordo on May 08, 2020, 09:53:27 AM"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.Are you even here to discuss anything or just splurgeWhat exactly is there to discuss, pray tell? Either you're a racist who thinks it's acceptable for white people to say the word, however much you want to sugar coat it with bullshit rationale, or you aren't.It's not exactly a conversation brimming with heated debate.Well there is a word that perpetuates an us vs them situation when the goal is to not perpetuate an us vs them situationJust on its face having a word one group can use and another group can't is inherently discriminatory but on the other hand, the group also has been oppressed for centuries so there is history behind the wordYou accused me of boiling down an entire ethnicity to a single entity and here you are making this a binary argument with no nuance What the fuck are you blathering on about? You literally just refuted your own case. Yeah, the word has history behind it. Hence why white people shouldn't be using it sans in very limited circumstances, i.e. in an acting performance.Not everything has to have this super grey moral gradient to it. Sometimes things really are just unambiguous.
Quote from: Aether on May 08, 2020, 12:39:41 PMHow is a word inherently racist?Slurs are derogatory by definition, and the use of them (outside of the field of reclaimed speech) cannot be justified outside of specific situations. The oppressing group using pejoratives reinforces the social stigmatization of the oppressed group and the status quo. "Words are just words" ignores the hundreds of years of abuse, dehumanization, and racism associated with that word. A black man was killed for jogging through a neighborhood fifteen minutes from his house, and nobody knew for two months because the system did its damnedest to cover it up. You can't make steps toward limiting societal imbalance while actively participating in a culture of stigmatization.
Quote from: Verbatim on May 08, 2020, 12:46:39 PMwhat if, instead of racist, he just said "extremely impolite"would that be a problem, or do you still want to say the word without being seen as impoliteThat would make a lot more sense to me. There are a lot of words that I wouldn't expect to be seen as being polite when saying them.I just don't understand how, for instance, I would be racist for using the word while having this discussion. There are plenty of contexts in which a person might say it without any intention of being derogatory or having any prejudice against black people.
Quote from: Aether on May 08, 2020, 12:59:15 PMQuote from: Verbatim on May 08, 2020, 12:46:39 PMwhat if, instead of racist, he just said "extremely impolite"would that be a problem, or do you still want to say the word without being seen as impoliteThat would make a lot more sense to me. There are a lot of words that I wouldn't expect to be seen as being polite when saying them.I just don't understand how, for instance, I would be racist for using the word while having this discussion. There are plenty of contexts in which a person might say it without any intention of being derogatory or having any prejudice against black people.there's an argument to be made that your weird defensiveness towards the word's usage could be seen as a canary in the coalmine for some unspoken racism you might be holding deep down, while other white people such as myself are perfectly content in saying, "well, it's not a word i would ever use anyway, so it's not a big deal to me" which is the more correct positionthough, full disclosure, while i've never used the word in a serious context, i have used it in jokes before on this website, but i'd probably think twice about ever doing it again, because i don't find those jokes funny anymore
Yeah but that would be a total assumption. I really cant stand collectivism in general.I'm not really trying to defend the use of the word so much as I'm trying to figure out why people believe the act of using it is what is racist instead of the person's intentions behind it.
Alright let me break it down for you since you have the processing power of an antRacism is bad. Racism means barriers between races.The word nigger sets up barriers between races.
The use of the word nigger perpetuates barriers between races.
Barriers between races means racism.The use of the word nigger perpetuates racism.
Nobody should use the word nigger honestly.
Quote from: 🍁 Aria 🔮 on May 08, 2020, 01:05:34 PMQuote from: Aether on May 08, 2020, 12:39:41 PMHow is a word inherently racist?Slurs are derogatory by definition, and the use of them (outside of the field of reclaimed speech) cannot be justified outside of specific situations. The oppressing group using pejoratives reinforces the social stigmatization of the oppressed group and the status quo. "Words are just words" ignores the hundreds of years of abuse, dehumanization, and racism associated with that word. A black man was killed for jogging through a neighborhood fifteen minutes from his house, and nobody knew for two months because the system did its damnedest to cover it up. You can't make steps toward limiting societal imbalance while actively participating in a culture of stigmatization.I'm not asking what justification there is for using a word, though. What I'm getting at is how words literally have no meaning at all until we as humans give meaning to them, thus that meaning is not absolute. You have, for example, the word "negro," which can be seen as derogatory in English, but in Spanish it simply means the color black. Because of this, not every use of the word has a derogatory meaning or even a negative one.That isn't to say that because of this, people should just be able to go around saying slurs willy nilly and everyone else should just get over it. I'm only saying that there are plenty of instances where saying a racial slur isn't actually being racist. It's not the act of saying the word itself that is racist so much as it is the context behind it.
This is now a classic Xbox Live lobby thread.
