A Vegan diet is unhealthy, Verbatim

Rinev · June 18, 2015, 09:21:44 PM

Quote from: Ingloriouswho98 on June 18, 2015, 09:06:28 PM

We were designed like this through millions of years of evolution
Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel?

Promoting this lifestyle of ingesting pills and processed dirt is not where humanity should go

So is our evolution just supposed to stop where we are now? We've already evolved to the point of being able to eat the shit we have today.

Ingy · June 18, 2015, 09:49:07 PM

Quote from: Rinev Jeqkogo on June 18, 2015, 09:21:44 PM

Quote from: Ingloriouswho98 on June 18, 2015, 09:06:28 PM
We were designed like this through millions of years of evolution
Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel?

Promoting this lifestyle of ingesting pills and processed dirt is not where humanity should go
So is our evolution just supposed to stop where we are now? We've already evolved to the point of being able to eat the shit we have today.

Yeah and we're dying and getting poisoned from it

Ingy · June 18, 2015, 09:58:21 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 18, 2015, 09:08:16 PM

Quote from: Ingloriouswho98 on June 18, 2015, 09:06:28 PM
Living that way is unethical
It doesn't hurt anybody. How can it possibly be unethical?

I don't think you're ready for this conversation, intellectually. I'm not going to bother.

I guess it's your choice but it's very ineffective because there are ways to not participate in animal abuse while not poisoning yourself

Solonoid · June 18, 2015, 09:59:13 PM

Quote from: Pendulate on June 18, 2015, 07:05:49 AM

Quote from: Sᴏʟ's Sᴏɴɢ on June 18, 2015, 06:52:27 AM
I haven't eaten meat in days and I've been feeling lightheaded and weak, even though I've been eating plenty of nuts.
Then your diet is poorly structured. You can't eat whatever you want and expect to be healthy just because it's vegan.

like I said, I had been eating plenty of nuts, and also beans.

My diet was poorly structured for the last week because I wasn't saying any manmade nutritional supplements, like tofu or fake meat.

You've literally made my point for me.

Verbatim · June 18, 2015, 10:02:02 PM

Quote from: Ingloriouswho98 on June 18, 2015, 09:58:21 PM

I guess it's your choice but it's very ineffective because there are ways to not participate in animal abuse while not poisoning yourself

Killing an animal for food when you have alternatives is never okay. It's all "abuse" in my eyes. So no, there is no way to do that other than to be a vegan. There just isn't.

Ingy · June 18, 2015, 10:09:52 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 18, 2015, 10:02:02 PM

Quote from: Ingloriouswho98 on June 18, 2015, 09:58:21 PM
I guess it's your choice but it's very ineffective because there are ways to not participate in animal abuse while not poisoning yourself
Killing an animal for food when you have alternatives is never okay. It's all "abuse" in my eyes. So no, there is no way to do that other than to be a vegan. There just isn't.

Killing an animal for food is completely ok
That's what evolution has taught us for millions of years

There is no alternative and unless you learned how do photosynthesis, you're eating animals
Sure you're not directly killing an animal but unless you're taking your energy directly from the sun, your energy comes from somewhere else and that would be eating animals
In some fucked up processed poison form

Kiwicake · June 18, 2015, 10:14:03 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 18, 2015, 10:02:02 PM

Quote from: Ingloriouswho98 on June 18, 2015, 09:58:21 PM
I guess it's your choice but it's very ineffective because there are ways to not participate in animal abuse while not poisoning yourself
Killing an animal for food when you have alternatives is never okay. It's all "abuse" in my eyes. So no, there is no way to do that other than to be a vegan. There just isn't.

Would you agree with meat grown in labs and stuff (In vitro meat)?

Verbatim · June 18, 2015, 10:14:16 PM

Quote from: Ingloriouswho98 on June 18, 2015, 10:09:52 PM

Killing an animal for food is completely ok
That's what evolution has taught us for millions of years

Evolution is not the arbiter of all ethics.

No rationally constructed system could ever create a planet where organisms harm and feed off of each other to survive. A rationally constructed universe would have no pain or suffering at all.

There is no god. And though I'm sure you claim to be an atheist, you treating nature as though it's some form of infallible deity is no better than half the religious kooks on the planet.

Grow up.

Quote from: Ingloriouswho98 on June 18, 2015, 10:09:52 PM

There is no alternative and unless you learned how do photosynthesis, you're eating animals
Sure you're not directly killing an animal but unless you're taking your energy directly from the sun, your energy comes from somewhere else and that would be eating animals
In some fucked up processed poison form

Veganism isn't about being a paragon of virtue. It's just about doing the very best you can to prevent as much suffering as you possibly can.

Verbatim · June 18, 2015, 10:14:56 PM

Quote from: Fruit on June 18, 2015, 10:14:03 PM

Would you agree with meat grown in labs and stuff (In vitro meat)?

Hmm. Well, as long as no animals have to suffer and die in the process, I'm not opposed to it.

big sponge · June 18, 2015, 10:15:22 PM

Going to echo Verb here and say that forcing this shit on pets that literally can not survive on that diet is stupid and that veganism isn't about having a naturally healthy diet, it's about ethics.

Now whether or not I agree with that set of ethics is a different subject.

Rinev · June 18, 2015, 10:20:15 PM

It's funny how most of the time people give vegans shit for pushing their 'superior' diet on other people, yet the complete opposite is happening here.

Pendulate · June 18, 2015, 10:22:46 PM

Quote from: Sᴏʟ's Sᴏɴɢ on June 18, 2015, 09:59:13 PM

like I said, I had been eating plenty of nuts, and also beans.

Nuts and beans =/= a healthy diet.

It's no wonder you feel light-headed, because nuts are basically pure fat and your brain needs glucose to function properly.

Pendulate · June 18, 2015, 10:24:53 PM

Quote from: Rinev Jeqkogo on June 18, 2015, 10:20:15 PM

It's funny how most of the time people give vegans shit for pushing their 'superior' diet on other people, yet the complete opposite is happening here.

Happens all the time.

"Sorry man, I can't eat that. I'm vegan."

"WOAH, don't go pushing your beliefs on me now!"

Ingy · June 18, 2015, 11:18:14 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 18, 2015, 10:14:16 PM

Quote from: Ingloriouswho98 on June 18, 2015, 10:09:52 PM
Killing an animal for food is completely ok
That's what evolution has taught us for millions of years
Evolution is not the arbiter of all ethics.

No rationally constructed system could ever create a planet where organisms harm and feed off of each other to survive. A rationally constructed universe would have no pain or suffering at all.

There is no god. And though I'm sure you claim to be an atheist, you treating nature as though it's some form of infallible deity is no better than half the religious kooks on the planet.

Grow up.
Quote from: Ingloriouswho98 on June 18, 2015, 10:09:52 PM
There is no alternative and unless you learned how do photosynthesis, you're eating animals
Sure you're not directly killing an animal but unless you're taking your energy directly from the sun, your energy comes from somewhere else and that would be eating animals
In some fucked up processed poison form
Veganism isn't about being a paragon of virtue. It's just about doing the very best you can to prevent as much suffering as you possibly can.

When did this become something about god?
I'm just saying this system has been in place without change for millions of years
Why try to change it?
Why does meat make us healthy and something that the body need if we aren't suppose to eat them?
I mean should wolves and lions stop eating animals too?

And they're not humans
They don't have dreams or hopes for the future
As long as they aren't in constant pain and treated reasonably humanly, there is literally no issue

Verbatim · June 18, 2015, 11:30:25 PM

Quote from: Ingloriouswho98 on June 18, 2015, 11:18:14 PM

When did this become something about god?

You treat nature as though it is a god. Like most atheists tend to do.

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I'm just saying this system has been in place without change for millions of years
Why try to change it?

Because it's the right thing to do. We've also been killing each other for millions of years. That doesn't make killing people okay.

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Why does meat make us healthy and something that the body need if we aren't suppose to eat them?

I'm not arguing that we're not "supposed" to eat them.

I'm arguing that we shouldn't eat them. Two very different things.

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I mean should wolves and lions stop eating animals too?

Refer to the first post I made in this thread.

Unlike wolves, we can survive without eating meat.
And we have the intelligence and self-control to do so.

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And they're not humans
They don't have dreams or hopes for the future

But they suffer. That's all that matters.

Deleted · June 19, 2015, 02:23:55 AM

YouTube

Irrelevant post. Please Ignore.
>ITT: People still think they can sway each other's opinions even though we've been though this half a billion times

Solonoid · June 19, 2015, 04:41:59 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on June 18, 2015, 10:22:46 PM

Quote from: Sᴏʟ's Sᴏɴɢ on June 18, 2015, 09:59:13 PM
like I said, I had been eating plenty of nuts, and also beans.
Nuts and beans =/= a healthy diet.

It's no wonder you feel light-headed, because nuts are basically pure fat and your brain needs glucose to function properly.

No, I didn't say I had been eating only nuts and beans,I said that those were my only source of protein, and that I had been suffering symptoms of protein deficiency.

I was taking in plenty of glucose, and all of the other nutrients I needed, but my protein source was insufficient.

I need meat, or manmade fake meats to live and function.

Excuse me for choosing the one that i evolved consuming.

Verbatim · June 19, 2015, 04:48:48 AM

If being a vegan was going to kill me tomorrow, I would still be a vegan.

Pendulate · June 19, 2015, 04:51:13 AM

Quote from: Sᴏʟ's Sᴏɴɢ on June 19, 2015, 04:41:59 AM

I was taking in plenty of glucose, and all of the other nutrients I needed, but my protein source was insufficient.

So consume more protein. It's incredibly easy to get on a vegan diet.

Quote

I need meat, or manmade fake meats to live and function.

I'm sorry, but human physiology and nutritional science say that you don't.

Quote

Excuse me for choosing the one that i evolved consuming.

That's a naturalistic fallacy.

Pendulate · June 19, 2015, 04:54:33 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 19, 2015, 04:48:48 AM

If being a vegan was going to kill me tomorrow, I would still be a vegan.

Well I don't know about that. I want to make a positive contribution to the world. At least try and improve animal husbandry before kicking the bucket.

Solonoid · June 19, 2015, 04:57:51 AM

Quote from: Rinev Jeqkogo on June 18, 2015, 10:20:15 PM

It's funny how most of the time people give vegans shit for pushing their 'superior' diet on other people, yet the complete opposite is happening here.

I have vegan friends who simply never talk about it.

But if I say that it's not morally inferior to them, they don't claim their diet is superior, they just say it's a matter of personal preference. My sister is a vegetarian purely because she doesn't like meat. She takes protein supplements so she doesn't have to eat fake meat.

I can't believe the self righteous shit internet vegans go around espousing, that their diet is ethical, even though it's adverse to evolution. And then to vision that there is a natural way to replace those nutrients without shocking your body into adjustment?

I would literally go into withdrawal if I became a pure natural vegan tomorrow.

So if I come onto the internet and say it's neither natural nor ethically superior, and somebody responds telling me it is, wouldn't I want to be superior? Wouldn't that statement from them, being any other reasons than personal preference, be an affront to my moral composition and therefore a challenge to adopt their lifestyle?

So no, it doesn't matter who started the fight, it matters house you fought.

I have never told anyone they have
to eat meat, I'm only saying that I have to eat meat, and nobody has any right to say that they are in any way better than me because of it.

Really, house many people ITT have told the advocates of veganism to stop being vegan?

Verbatim · June 19, 2015, 05:00:53 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on June 19, 2015, 04:54:33 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 19, 2015, 04:48:48 AM
If being a vegan was going to kill me tomorrow, I would still be a vegan.
Well I don't know about that. I want to make a positive contribution to the world. At least try and improve animal husbandry before kicking the bucket.

I'm just trying to drive the point home that one's own life, and especially one's happiness, isn't worth the suffering of other sentient beings.

Verbatim · June 19, 2015, 05:04:38 AM

Quote from: Sᴏʟ's Sᴏɴɢ on June 19, 2015, 04:57:51 AM

So if I come onto the internet and say it's neither natural nor ethically superior, and somebody responds telling me it is, wouldn't I want to be superior?

Most meat-eaters I know are fine with admitting that vegans are ethically superior. Which leads me to think that those who are unwilling to concede are simply insecure.

It's really not terribly difficult to see how not torturing is more ethical than torturing.

Solonoid · June 19, 2015, 05:05:22 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on June 19, 2015, 04:51:13 AM

Quote from: Sᴏʟ's Sᴏɴɢ on June 19, 2015, 04:41:59 AM
I was taking in plenty of glucose, and all of the other nutrients I needed, but my protein source was insufficient.
So consume more protein. It's incredibly easy to get on a vegan diet.

Quote
I need meat, or manmade fake meats to live and function.
I'm sorry, but human physiology and nutritional science say that you don't.

Quote
Excuse me for choosing the one that i evolved consuming.
That's a naturalistic fallacy.

I hate that appeal to nature is considered a logical fallacy, it's the same basis as all of the ethical arguments Verb is making. A simple "this is what I believe in"

And yes, you require protein to function, and I an simply unable to eat all of the nuts and beans I would have to to make up the a diet with no meat.

You all seem to think in telling you not to be vegan, when really all I'm saying is that I simply can not be vegan.

Solonoid · June 19, 2015, 05:11:06 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 19, 2015, 05:04:38 AM

Quote from: Sᴏʟ's Sᴏɴɢ on June 19, 2015, 04:57:51 AM
So if I come onto the internet and say it's neither natural nor ethically superior, and somebody responds telling me it is, wouldn't I want to be superior?
Most meat-eaters I know are fine with admitting that vegans are ethically superior. Which leads me to think that those who are unwilling to concede are simply insecure.

It's really not terribly difficult to see how not torturing is more ethical than torturing.

Of course in unwilling to say that someone else is superior to me, in any way.

It's because I'm not insecure, and I take all of my actions with deliberation and zeal.

Perhaps I have a god complex, but I like to think that there's little room for improvement in me.

I can't imagine going through life anyways worrying about how to be a better person.

I'm fucking awesome the way I am, and if you think you're better then me, we'll have to have a rap battle.

Spoiler

But I'm not a rapper.

Verbatim · June 19, 2015, 05:11:22 AM

Quote from: Sᴏʟ's Sᴏɴɢ on June 19, 2015, 05:05:22 AM

I hate that appeal to nature is considered a logical fallacy

The appeal to nature is not the same thing as a naturalistic fallacy.

Appeal to nature = It's natural, therefore good.
Naturalistic fallacy = It's enjoyable and/or desirable, therefore good.

Just saying. Common mistake.

They are only similar in that they are both some of the most egregious logical fallacies there is. The appeal to nature, in particular, is probably the most important logical fallacy there is, especially in a post-secular community, because it shuts down this whole Gaia delusion that new atheists like to clutch onto like desperate children.

I mean, feel free to commit it all you want, but it just makes you look like a religious nut.

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You all seem to think in telling you not to be vegan, when really all I'm saying is that I simply can not be vegan.

Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you can't become a vegan.

That's absolutely fine, in my opinion. I would simply ask, then, that you at least be an advocate.
But since you don't consider it to be superior in any way to meat-eating, we've hit a snag.

Quote from: Sᴏʟ's Sᴏɴɢ on June 19, 2015, 05:11:06 AM

Of course in unwilling to say that someone else is superior to me, in any way.

That's textbook insecurity, but whatever.

Solonoid · June 19, 2015, 05:18:45 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 19, 2015, 05:11:22 AM

That's textbook insecurity, but whatever.

Well shit looks like me and Verb are having a rap battle in the next podcast.

Desty · June 19, 2015, 05:22:32 AM

How can you guys be so dense? Verbatim is right, and all of the points can be explained by me, a nonvegan.

Pendulate · June 19, 2015, 07:14:50 AM

Quote from: Sᴏʟ's Sᴏɴɢ on June 19, 2015, 05:05:22 AM

I hate that appeal to nature is considered a logical fallacy, it's the same basis as all of the ethical arguments Verb is making. A simple "this is what I believe in"

Sorry, what? There's a huge difference between saying "this is what we should do because it prevents the suffering and exploitation of billions of animals" and "this is what we should do because nature".

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And yes, you require protein to function, and I an simply unable to eat all of the nuts and beans I would have to to make up the a diet with no meat.

There are plenty of vegan protein sources. Rice, corn, tofu, tempeh, seeds, leafy greens, even vegan protein powders if you really need them.

The protein excuse is not an excuse at all.

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You all seem to think in telling you not to be vegan, when really all I'm saying is that I simply can not be vegan.

No, you are trying to justify your laziness with flimsy excuses. If that seems direct, I'm sorry, but it's the truth.

If you lack the willpower to become vegan*, then simply admit it. But don't make fallacious appeals to nature and present sloppy nutritional information to try and make your reasons more respectable than they are.

* I really cannot fathom how people lack the willpower to go vegan when it is literally the easiest thing you can do if you care at all about living ethically, but okay.

Rinev · June 19, 2015, 08:02:34 AM

Quote from: Sᴏʟ's Sᴏɴɢ on June 19, 2015, 04:57:51 AM

I can't believe the self righteous shit internet vegans go around espousing, that their diet is ethical, even though it's adverse to evolution.

I don't see how substituting one source of nutrition for another is adverse to evolution, if anything I would think it's further evolution.

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So if I come onto the internet and say it's neither natural nor ethically superior, and somebody responds telling me it is, wouldn't I want to be superior? Wouldn't that statement from them, being any other reasons than personal preference, be an affront to my moral composition and therefore a challenge to adopt their lifestyle?

I'm not quite sure if this post is telling me how insecure you are or how much of an over inflated ego you have, but it's one of the two. If someone gave you good reasons on why something is superior, you couldn't admit that you were wrong?

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Really, house many people ITT have told the advocates of veganism to stop being vegan?

That's not what I was saying at all. I said that they were pushing their superior diet on them. On top of that I didn't say that a large number of people said that, only that it happened.