Quote from: IcyWind on October 21, 2014, 02:07:57 PM

Indeed. Generally, this line of questioning, discrepancies, and lack of understanding highlights the vast underfunding and lack of research into some of these mental illnesses.

Completely agree, especially when it comes to the prison system. Prisons are essentially de facto asylums for the mentally ill.

Just pushes the issue to one side.

Prisons are one of the most egregious errors with mental illness. More research should also be done pertaining to the youth population as well.

It's something we all experience as people at one time or another; same with depression. If you've never had a time of feeling down in the dumps then I will call B.S

Yes, but there is a difference between self diagnosed depression, and medically diagnosed.

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on October 21, 2014, 10:58:48 AM

Quote from: Kinder on October 21, 2014, 10:49:30 AM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on October 21, 2014, 10:42:17 AM

Cut the shit, right now.

Kinder: Meta did not launch a personal attack, he took issue with your ignorance of suicide.

I will say this once, anyone who continues this shit is getting a 20% warning. Anyone.
Cut the crap out, discuss it nicely and try not to act like little bitches when you argue.

And Kinder, as a separate point, Suicidal Ideation and the act of suicide has nothing to do with Cowardice. Are hallucinations from Schizophrenia cowardice? Are nervous ticks cowardice? Is PTSD Cowardice?
No they fracking well aren't and so kindly send that view back to the 1900s where it belongs.

Whatever. It was a personal attack and if I did what Meta pulled, I'd be banned right now

The discussion isn't about ideation. It's about the act itself. Committing suicide is in my own opinion a selfish and cowardly act

No, you wouldn't. You would have been if you called him an idiot, simply saying someone is demonstrating their ignorance doesn't constitute a personal attack. Or would you prefer this site does become a hugbox?

And your opinion is wrong as it's based on the assumption that people who commit suicide do so out of cowardice rather than a warped mental state, unless you want to say that a warped mental state is the result of cowardice which is even more grossly incorrect.

How can an opinion be wrong? That doesn't make sense. I don't care if somebody supported the idea of killing all humans to protect the earth, I would never say their opinion is wrong

I'm not discussing the person or the psychological issues, just the act of suicide itself. There are solutions out to help people struggling. People facing it don't do it outright because they are hanging on a thread of deep-down positive and happy thoughts, those are what need to be focused on to make that thread into a rope

If an opinion is based on incorrect information then it can be wrong.
It's not like we are discussing preferences for films, where 'I like X' cannot be wrong, but your 'opinion' regarding suicide and mental illness is flat out incorrect. (Strawman goes here)

Max has already addressed this point.

And no shit there are solutions, but this bit

People facing it don't do it outright because they are hanging on a thread of deep-down positive and happy thoughts

You can't just fix depression with smiles and sunshine, it's a complex illness with a number of contributing factors and causes. Generalising like that is incredibly dangerous and the worst disgrace of a Psychologist that I've ever had the misfortune of meeting holds to that mindset, It can all be fixed with a smile on your face and a thumb up your ass. Speaking only from the people I directly know, he hasn't helped any of the five of them who have been his patients. Because his idiotic closed mind refuses to look at the bigger picture regarding the cause of their problems.

Yes that's a bit of a side track but it pisses me off when people who don't understand mental illnesses make damaging statements like that one.

Sure some people can be helped by a bit of cheering up, but chances are they aren't clinically depressed. I've never heard of a case where someone has committed suicide from a case of the blues, plenty of people who make a 'rational choice' and countless more who commit suicide because of severe Depression, and I'm willing to bet that most of the people who jump that didn't appear to do so under the rational choice banding were Depressed, even those who aren't recorded as such because they were undiagnosed and untreated.

See, this topic alone could be debated for months with no clear results.

If you get down to it, just about anything can be constituted as a "mental disease".

Which is why the DSM-V is regarded badly by a lot of leading Psychologists outside of the USA (And inside it). Not everything is a mental disorder, that's plain old horseshit.

Quote

If it's something that a person doesn't routinely feel, then chances it shouldn't be a disorder. In this case, a person getting anxiety due blackmail without ever having felt that way before. It's something we all experience as people at one time or another; same with depression. If you've never had a time of feeling down in the dumps then I will call B.S

No shit, but being down in the dumps =/= clinical depression.
You don't blow your brains out over being down in the dumps.

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on October 21, 2014, 02:16:12 PM

You can't just fix depression with smiles and sunshine

Not only that, but it either has a neutral effect, or often makes everything worse.

I have friends and family that suffer from depression. Hearing "just cheer up!" a thousand times helps nothing, and can drive them deeper into their hole.

Indeed, anecdotally I have never once seen it make things better. From a personal note it simply made me angry, and I see that effect in other people I know. It never comes off as caring or helpful but as a smug facetiousness of 'I'm happy and you aren't, so why don't ya just cheer up?' even if that's the exact opposite of the real intention.

Quote from: IcyWind on October 21, 2014, 02:13:17 PM

Quote from: Kinder on October 21, 2014, 02:11:54 PM

It's something we all experience as people at one time or another; same with depression. If you've never had a time of feeling down in the dumps then I will call B.S

Yes, but there is a difference between self diagnosed depression, and medically diagnosed.

I know. But a person not going through clinical depression can face "plain" depression and kill themselves, despite not being mentally ill

*sigh*

No, that would be clinical depression.

Tell me, do you know the criteria for the diagnosis of it? As compared to something like SAD?

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on October 21, 2014, 02:16:12 PM

Quote from: Kinder on October 21, 2014, 01:35:30 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on October 21, 2014, 10:58:48 AM

Quote from: Kinder on October 21, 2014, 10:49:30 AM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on October 21, 2014, 10:42:17 AM

Cut the shit, right now.

Kinder: Meta did not launch a personal attack, he took issue with your ignorance of suicide.

I will say this once, anyone who continues this shit is getting a 20% warning. Anyone.
Cut the crap out, discuss it nicely and try not to act like little bitches when you argue.

And Kinder, as a separate point, Suicidal Ideation and the act of suicide has nothing to do with Cowardice. Are hallucinations from Schizophrenia cowardice? Are nervous ticks cowardice? Is PTSD Cowardice?
No they fracking well aren't and so kindly send that view back to the 1900s where it belongs.

Whatever. It was a personal attack and if I did what Meta pulled, I'd be banned right now

The discussion isn't about ideation. It's about the act itself. Committing suicide is in my own opinion a selfish and cowardly act

No, you wouldn't. You would have been if you called him an idiot, simply saying someone is demonstrating their ignorance doesn't constitute a personal attack. Or would you prefer this site does become a hugbox?

And your opinion is wrong as it's based on the assumption that people who commit suicide do so out of cowardice rather than a warped mental state, unless you want to say that a warped mental state is the result of cowardice which is even more grossly incorrect.

How can an opinion be wrong? That doesn't make sense. I don't care if somebody supported the idea of killing all humans to protect the earth, I would never say their opinion is wrong

I'm not discussing the person or the psychological issues, just the act of suicide itself. There are solutions out to help people struggling. People facing it don't do it outright because they are hanging on a thread of deep-down positive and happy thoughts, those are what need to be focused on to make that thread into a rope

If an opinion is based on incorrect information then it can be wrong.
It's not like we are discussing preferences for films, where 'I like X' cannot be wrong, but your 'opinion' regarding suicide and mental illness is flat out incorrect. (Strawman goes here)

Max has already addressed this point.

And no shit there are solutions, but this bit

Quote

People facing it don't do it outright because they are hanging on a thread of deep-down positive and happy thoughts

You can't just fix depression with smiles and sunshine, it's a complex illness with a number of contributing factors and causes. Generalising like that is incredibly dangerous and the worst disgrace of a Psychologist that I've ever had the misfortune of meeting holds to that mindset, It can all be fixed with a smile on your face and a thumb up your ass. Speaking only from the people I directly know, he hasn't helped any of the five of them who have been his patients. Because his idiotic closed mind refuses to look at the bigger picture regarding the cause of their problems.

Yes that's a bit of a side track but it pisses me off when people who don't understand mental illnesses make damaging statements like that one.

Sure some people can be helped by a bit of cheering up, but chances are they aren't clinically depressed. I've never heard of a case where someone has committed suicide from a case of the blues, plenty of people who make a 'rational choice' and countless more who commit suicide because of severe Depression, and I'm willing to bet that most of the people who jump that didn't appear to do so under the rational choice banding were Depressed, even those who aren't recorded as such because they were undiagnosed and untreated.

Wasn't trying say you can fix it with sunshine with smiles. I was saying that people who contemplate it sometimes hold it off because there's something keeping them anchored to life, which is good because that can be taken and built on. Even the slightest glimmer of hope can make the difference between a person living or dying

Well no shit, but that doesn't change that you keep confusing the blues/mild depression with clinical depression which is a whole other kettle of fish.

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on October 21, 2014, 02:29:28 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on October 21, 2014, 02:25:07 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on October 21, 2014, 02:21:02 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on October 21, 2014, 02:18:34 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on October 21, 2014, 02:16:12 PM

You can't just fix depression with smiles and sunshine

Not only that, but it either has a neutral effect, or often makes everything worse.

I have friends and family that suffer from depression. Hearing "just cheer up!" a thousand times helps nothing, and can drive them deeper into their hole.

Indeed, anecdotally I have never once seen it make things better. From a personal note it simply made me angry, and I see that effect in other people I know. It never comes off as caring or helpful but as a smug facetiousness of 'I'm happy and you aren't, so why don't ya just cheer up?' even if that's the exact opposite of the real intention.

Exactly. I doubt he'll read this, so I'll share it -

My younger brother [now 17] has been suffering from depression for several years now. On top of some medical issues, he's also dealing with being trans. My family opted for homeschooling when his medical issues were keeping him out of classes too often, so he pretty much never leaves his room, and doesn't have any friends.

I try to be optimistic about it all, but things are pretty rough for him, and I know "cheer up, bro" isn't going to help anything.

Ouch :l

Has he been seeing a doctor/psych about the depression/trans? I would be pretty surprised if they hadn't <.<

Yeah he has, for both. He's certainly doing better than, say, a year ago, but it's a long road.

Ah that's good, and it certainly is. I hope things improve for them soon though.

If you are going to pull out some random online criterion you could at least do the full version, this is the NHS's general diagnostics criteria.

Link: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Depression/Pages/Symptoms.aspx

Note the bits you omitted, such as duration of symptoms, severity of symptoms.

The symptoms of depression can be complex and vary widely between people. But as a general rule, if you are depressed, you feel sad, hopeless and lose interest in things you used to enjoy.

The symptoms persist for weeks or months and are bad enough to interfere with your work, social life and family life.

There are many other symptoms of depression and you're unlikely to have every one listed below.

If you experience some of these symptoms for most of the day, every day for more than two weeks, you should seek help from your GP.
Psychological symptoms include:

    continuous low mood or sadness
    feeling hopeless and helpless
    having low self-esteem
    feeling tearful
    feeling guilt-ridden
    feeling irritable and intolerant of others
    having no motivation or interest in things
    finding it difficult to make decisions
    not getting any enjoyment out of life
    feeling anxious or worried
    having suicidal thoughts or thoughts of harming yourself

Physical symptoms include:

    moving or speaking more slowly than usual
    change in appetite or weight (usually decreased, but sometimes increased)
    constipation
    unexplained aches and pains
    lack of energy or lack of interest in sex (loss of libido)
    changes to your menstrual cycle
    disturbed sleep (for example, finding it hard to fall asleep at night or waking up very early in the morning)

Social symptoms include:

    not doing well at work
    taking part in fewer social activities and avoiding contact with friends
    neglecting your hobbies and interests
    having difficulties in your home and family life

Depression can come on gradually, so it can be difficult to notice something is wrong. Many people continue to try to cope with their symptoms without realising they are ill. It can take a friend or family member to suggest something is wrong.

Doctors describe depression by how serious it is:

    mild depression has some impact on your daily life
    moderate depression has a significant impact on your daily life
    severe depression makes it almost impossible to get through daily life – a few people with severe depression may have psychotic symptoms

I know what clinical depression is. I've suffered from depression multiple times in the past and I'm not getting it confused with "the blues"

As you have said, and I don't doubt it. But the point is that you keep on stating things that are possibly helpful for mild depression (which has minor impact on your daily life, very little impact on the FFA checklist and typically goes away after a period of time with no major medical treatment needed) as if they were things that would apply to someone with severe clinical depression.

And yet again, your original statement ITT was that people who commit suicide are choosing the coward's way out. If you say that you know about clinical depression then how in the hell do you still maintain that? Or don't you? Or more likely, do you not know a lot about clinical depression beyond what some quick google can tell you.

As it's also been pointed out ITT, ignorance isn't something to be ashamed of or defensive over. It's something to accept and either leave at that or work on improving. I know jack shit about economics and philosophy, I don't pretend to understand either. I do however know a fair bit about Psychology in general and Mental Illness in particular having spent the last three years studying it and living through it.