When I was in the military and found out that transgender people were unable to serve

I don't want to come off the wrong way but...how did you make it that far without knowing that?

This thread really didn't need to end up like this, but since I've made a sort of quasi-claim, now that I'm on my laptop, I'll back it up.

Suicide is in absolutely no way the result of cowardice. To claim as such is essentially the same as claiming those who deserted in World War One, who had shellshock, were cowards. You can play the semantics game all you want, and say that those soldiers suffered from cowardice as a symptom of PTSD but that won't cut it simply because one of the key components of cowardice is the fact that it is contemptible.

When people like Kinder and myself can claim to have been to that dark place, in the grip of mental illness (definitely with me, not sure with Kinder), and come out alive it shouldn't constitute a judgement call on other people in a similar situation. One of the hallmarks of suicidality - whether a result of mental illness or not - is feeling as if there is no alternative; it's like piling weights up on somebody's back. Depression, depending on one's psychosomatic "structure", if you like, can vary from person to person. For me, it doesn't create a feeling of sadness so much as apathy and an increased awareness of being emotionally hollow.

I didn't attempt suicide twice because I felt bad, or it felt as if I was in a dark place, it was because I saw no meaning or point to anything which didn't occupy that depressive space. My perception and awareness was, at least I believe now, fundamentally limited and, perhaps, flawed. In the same way you can't call a paranoid schizophrenic morally, socially or personally responsible, you can't call a suicidal individual a coward because the fault lies in their ability to perceive, not in their ability to cope.

Quote from: Kinder on October 21, 2014, 10:49:30 AM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on October 21, 2014, 10:42:17 AM

Cut the shit, right now.

Kinder: Meta did not launch a personal attack, he took issue with your ignorance of suicide.

I will say this once, anyone who continues this shit is getting a 20% warning. Anyone.
Cut the crap out, discuss it nicely and try not to act like little bitches when you argue.

And Kinder, as a separate point, Suicidal Ideation and the act of suicide has nothing to do with Cowardice. Are hallucinations from Schizophrenia cowardice? Are nervous ticks cowardice? Is PTSD Cowardice?
No they fracking well aren't and so kindly send that view back to the 1900s where it belongs.

Whatever. It was a personal attack and if I did what Meta pulled, I'd be banned right now

The discussion isn't about ideation. It's about the act itself. Committing suicide is in my own opinion a selfish and cowardly act

No, you wouldn't. You would have been if you called him an idiot, simply saying someone is demonstrating their ignorance doesn't constitute a personal attack. Or would you prefer this site does become a hugbox?

And your opinion is wrong as it's based on the assumption that people who commit suicide do so out of cowardice rather than a warped mental state, unless you want to say that a warped mental state is the result of cowardice which is even more grossly incorrect.

How can an opinion be wrong? That doesn't make sense. I don't care if somebody supported the idea of killing all humans to protect the earth, I would never say their opinion is wrong

I'm not discussing the person or the psychological issues, just the act of suicide itself. There are solutions out to help people struggling. People facing it don't do it outright because they are hanging on a thread of deep-down positive and happy thoughts, those are what need to be focused on to make that thread into a rope

I'm not discussing the person or the psychological issues, just the act of suicide itself.

It's kind of disingenuous to isolate the act of suicide from all those other factors, because those factors are what [usually] drives someone to suicide.

Quote from: Mad Max on October 21, 2014, 01:39:51 PM

Quote from: Kinder on October 21, 2014, 01:35:30 PM

I'm not discussing the person or the psychological issues, just the act of suicide itself.

It's kind of disingenuous to isolate the act of suicide from all those other factors, because those factors are what [usually] drives someone to suicide.

not everybody who kills themselves are mentally ill.

A pretty overwhelming majority are, I assume.

Quote from: Kinder on October 21, 2014, 01:44:14 PM

There are people who do suffer from mental illness, but not everybody who kills themselves are mentally ill.

I'd say this is false.

No it's true.

Killing yourself because of blackmail, or killing yourself because the police call on you for sexting (as on English lad did) doesn't constitute mental illness. There's perhaps an underlying psychological aberration - such as abnormally high levels of anxiety - but nothing to constitute an illness or a disorder.

Well, you do have people like Verbatim

Verby is just a dick. That's different.