It's in the title. Yeah, it's vague, but-- in a general sense-- why should we? It only leads to further suffering, so why hurt ourselves ever more?

I don't care if the answer is philosophical, scientific, or religious; I just need a good answer as to why it hurts so much to live.

Nihilism can go and stay go.

I understand generally why, as best to society and the continuation of humankind, it's bad. But for the individual please give reasons as to why it is a bad idea. Because honestly, I'm not so sure of why the pain of caring is worth the burden.

I feel as though you just asked this question the other day, and the general principles of my answer from that thread pretty much apply here as well. In summary: There's no good reason not to care. It also gives me an ego boost to know that I'm stronger-willed than those who don't.

Nihilism can go and stay go.

I asked if then, now I'm asking why.

As an antinatalist, wouldn't the overall reduction of suffering (produced in this instance by caring) be a benefit?

Not enough room to write how many things this connects to. If this were a conversation in person it would be a talk that persisted long after a reasonanle sleeping hour.

I'll start by saying that it's neccessary to find a middle ground rather than an extreme end on a scale. This is crucial to everything in we do in life and our systems. I don't think happiness and its opposite exist on a linear scale as both happiness and misery can feed each other. Take the linear scale and make it a circle.

Sombody likes eating. Happy. Person eats too much, gets morbidly obese. They're sad because they know they're obese but they're happy because they eat. Likewise. Take somebody who goes through a divorce. Sad. They're devastated. Sometimes they don't let go. They hold on to that sadness and that resentment and eventually it warps into a twisted pleasure because they like hating their ex. They like dwelling on it even though they associate those feelings as negative.

The goal with that compass of sorts it to keep your bearing right down the middle. You're asking why it hurts so much and the straight up answer I can give is that you're out of balance to an extent where you get stuck on the hurt. It hurts, but you're so used to it that there's a comfortable safeness to it. Rather than face the hurt in full and fight your way out because it's an understandably hard thing to do, you settle to the bottom where things become dull and relatively meaningless.

There's an irony in nihilism because it stems directly from a warped form of pleasure. It's a pleasure that the holder doesn't want to acknowledge, but it's there, deep down. They take pleasure in not caring. Very little nihilists will admit this because they would have to face reality.

Rather than tell you why you should care, I'll tell you that you already do, just in a warped manner. Unless you're an abberation to the human condition or a straight up psychopath, it's impossible for a regular human being not to care entirely.

The only problem is that landing your compass needle in the messy, far end of the spectrums where this stuff really blurs, is detrimental to you and any person experiencing it. It's not a question of why should we care, since we inescapeably already do. It's a question and a struggle to maintain a logical and sane balance without falling into the deep end of either side.

Care too little, it hurts you. Care too much, you burn yourself out. Care just enough so that you don't burn yourself out and tire, and when the hurt comes, you didn't stake everything you had and watch all of it fall apart.

I'll be frank. I understand. You're in a bad way. You know it and you know that you're doing it to yourself. You're hooked on what hurts but a small part of you knows something is wrong. You've got this massive wall in front of you and you know that's what you'll have to climb to get out of it. It's fucking scary and depressing and settling at the bottom, and staying there, as much as it hurts, is comforting because you don't know if you can handle that wall of shit you'll have to face to get out.

You want a real answer then I'm telling you to consider help. More than what you'll find here. You can only do it when you're ready to. The sad thing is, some people don't make it. They never get out of it. Not by circumstance but by choice. You need to ask yourself why you should care. Do you want to keep on as is until you can't take it and just off yourself? Do you want to wander through life empty and seeing nothing until something else gets you? Or do you fight your way out and find something better? Do you want to?

Let me tell you something. All the hurt of mine does not beat the good things I made for myself in life. The bad stuff I endured because I had no choice, the bad stuff I put myself through, nothing compared to the little moments of good stuff. If they weren't worth hanging on to I wouldn't have gone through what I am right now just to type this up for you, as silly as it might sound. You should care because of all the things you're blinding yourself to unknowingly by not caring.

Why not?

I asked if then, now I'm asking why.

As an antinatalist, wouldn't the overall reduction of suffering (produced in this instance by caring) be a benefit?

You brought up anti-natalism, so I'm gonna try to tackle this question from that angle.

A cornerstone of my philosophy is the concept that the positive and negative sensations associated with certain acts are often outweighed by each other. This also applies to, and is inextricably intertwined with, positive and negative outcomes. From this, we can derive four distinct parameters.

(A) There are acts that induce positive sensations, and positive outcomes.
(B) There are acts that induce positive sensations, yet negative outcomes.
(C) There are acts that induce negative sensations and negative outcomes.

And, perhaps most interestingly,
(D) There are acts that induce negative sensations, yet positive outcomes.

The lines between these parameters can be difficult to define with precision, for they can be blurred and mixed together. The idea is that outcomes always outweigh sensations, because they have a greater long-term effect. Sensations are temporary and spontaneous; outcomes have an impact, or leave a mark. They're more tangible and pragmatic, whereas sensations tend to be ephemeral and superficial. As such, it would be prudent to prioritize inducing positive outcomes at all times.

The simplest answer to your question here is that, to me, the positive outcomes that manifest as a result of caring far outweigh the negative sensations it can induce within me. Likewise, the negative outcomes that manifest as a result of NOT caring far outweigh any personal comfort it gives me. Generally speaking.

So no. The emotional suffering I personally endure from my deep consideration for the world and all its inhabitants is a necessary evil. If I were to stop caring, perhaps I'd instantly become a happier person--but I would lose not just an integral part of who I am as a person; it would also negatively impact other aspects of my life.

I could stop being a vegan right now, indulge in all those savory animal products I enjoyed so much in my teen years, and ultimately be happier--but so much of my adult life has been dedicated to spreading awareness of animal cruelty. I've inspired more people to become vegan than I can count on my two hands. A lot of people have shown their respect for my efforts. And, above all, I'm doing a good, moral thing which will eventually cascade into a movement--and I'll be one of its forerunners.

Or maybe not. Perhaps veganism will die just like I will, and my efforts will have proven futile.

I guess that means I should just give up, right? Because the possibility of failure is there?

No. Even if none of my beliefs come to fruition--even if nothing I want to happen ever happens--anti-natalism, veganism, feminism, socialism, higher minimum wage, free college, trans-acceptance, abolition of the sports industry, drinking age increased to 30, dead republicans and libertarians on the street, etc. etc. etc.--I want to die KNOWING that I lived for what I believe in. There is nothing to me that sounds more glorious--yes, even if everything I believe in gets snuffed out by the annals of history.

When Trump got elected, nobody was more despondent than me. Never once did I ask myself, "Why should I care? Why do I put myself through this? Why do I get so upset about these things?"

Not that there's anything wrong with asking yourself these questions, but the reason I never did is because I already had the answers. For myself, mind you. I care, I suffer, because I desire so much to see a better day. It gives my life a sense of purpose. If I were to stop caring, in my mind, I'd be guaranteeing myself a truly meaningless life.

That's me. From your perspective, you might view my outlook as laughable or futile. Maybe even childish, or perhaps uncharacteristically optimistic. My outlook comes more out of a sense of anger and entitlement, though, not optimism. Things are gonna suck and I'm fully aware of it, but you've got another thing coming if you think I'm just gonna stand back and let life trample over me. I want to trample over my life. I'm not there yet, but I'm trying, and I'm fighting. Maybe I'll fail, but if I do, it won't be in vain.

It's important to understand that, though it may not seem like it, I don't actually worry myself sick about every little thing in the universe. You can't care about everything--you do have to be focused, and this will allow you to care for fewer things more efficiently. If you're expending all your emotional energy on things that are perhaps out of your reach, then that's creating unnecessary stress.

As an anti-natalist, do I have a conniption fit every single time I hear a couple talk about wanting to have children? No, especially if I don't even know them. I don't let it bother me a bit, because 1.) There's absolutely nothing I can do to influence their decision, and 2.) even if I did, that's not an efficient way to spread my ideology, and 3.) it's just a singular distraction; the hour I spent sulking about it could be spent writing a research paper for class instead.

You have to learn when and where to make sacrifices. Yeah, I said that--as a caring person, you have to decide which things you don't care about. Because if you're stressing about too many unnecessary things that you can't change, then you'll just go crazy and you'll never get anything done. You've strayed even further from the path you intend to pave yourself through.

As strange as this is going to sound coming from me, your mental health should come first. People are at their BEST when their brains are, and if you are interested in being a caring person, you must have a healthy mind. It's not healthy to care too much, because it'll only make you want to care less; and less (to a degree) is more.

Basically what I'm saying is, it's okay to not give a shit sometimes. You need to give your emotions a break. When you hear on the news that there's been yet another terrorist attack or school shooting, don't allow yourself to become numb to it, but DO allow yourself to stand back up after taking the blow. You have to learn how to take it when you hear bad news. Take initiative and strengthen yourself; don't let bad news have a stranglehold on your life.

Vent online if you need to. Do whatever you need to do to convert your stress into a usable, self-sustaining energy that allows you to wake up the next morning and say, "All right, let's do it better this time." And for god's sake, don't allow yourself to get discouraged if you stumble on the way there.

I think I've said everything i wanted to, but I'll probably have a million things to add later. Either way, I hope you got more than absolutely nothing out of this. Sandtrap ended up saying a lot of the things I wanted to say, too, but even better.

I want nothing more than for you to be strong enough to grab life by its horns and show it who's boss. If you feel that apathy is what's going to help you achieve a happier/healthier existence, then I can't say I don't support that--though  would urge you to have selective apathy, as I described above. Don't let nihilism consume you, but allow yourself some breathing room when life rears its ugly head.

Quote from: CIS on March 23, 2017, 08:35:32 PM

Because you're severely depressed and need to see a competent professional who can help you. You should be able to find psychiatric help through your health care provider.

She's tried seeking professional help a number of times already to tepid results. I don't mean to speak for her but yeah.

I'm genuinely sorry to hear about that.

Because it's a shitty world and the human race will keep continuing so why not try and make it better for others if not for yourself

That or turn to alcohol and random, meaningless sex

Life is your oyster make your own meaning

I can tell you that self help is possible. It's hard, but possible. If you can figure out what's eating you and get down to the root of your problems, but you don't think you can do it alone, that's when you reach out to somebody. Not a doc, but somebody who'll listen, understand, and try to help. You gotta be ready to help yourself. Even if you've got a pal, they can't carry all the weight. That's the hard part. You have to be invested too.

Understanding the problem isn't the issue, it's fixing it. Not really something I can get help with either; it's a mental thing. Just don't have the will to get out of my own way.

Anyways, thanks for your time everyone. It helps. The thread can be locked if the mods want to.