I love how people act like "logic" is some big trump card and that emotions should have no play in anything. "HURR DURR WELL YOU CAN ONLY JUSTIFY THIS FROM AN EMOTIONAL STANDPOINT AND NOT A PURELY LOGICAL ONE SO IT DOESN'T EXIST AND I'M GONNA KEEP BEING AN ASSHOLE." Sorry, is the human race populated entirely full of sociopaths? It isn't, since that was a rhetorical question, and trying to act like emotion doesn't play a roll in anything we do and that it excuses you being a bigoted cuntbag just because it's not a purely logical action - especially in the realm of MENTAL DISEASES THAT ARE HEAVILY EFFECTED BY A PERSON'S EMOTIONS - is just fucking stupid, narrow-minded, and a poor justification for hatespeech, as most other things revolving around transphobia are.

I wouldn't even say there's a need to get defensive whens someone makes a logic-based attack against gender dysphoria, because I don't see that as an honest means of taking arguments down. You can make 100% logic-based arguments for trans people.

Quote from: Winy on October 26, 2015, 05:05:25 PM

Quote from: Cindo on October 26, 2015, 03:49:12 PM

I love how people act like "logic" is some big trump card and that emotions should have no play in anything. "HURR DURR WELL YOU CAN ONLY JUSTIFY THIS FROM AN EMOTIONAL STANDPOINT AND NOT A PURELY LOGICAL ONE SO IT DOESN'T EXIST AND I'M GONNA KEEP BEING AN ASSHOLE." Sorry, is the human race populated entirely full of sociopaths? It isn't, since that was a rhetorical question, and trying to act like emotion doesn't play a roll in anything we do and that it excuses you being a bigoted cuntbag just because it's not a purely logical action - especially in the realm of MENTAL DISEASES THAT ARE HEAVILY EFFECTED BY A PERSON'S EMOTIONS - is just fucking stupid, narrow-minded, and a poor justification for hatespeech, as most other things revolving around transphobia are.

I wouldn't even say there's a need to get defensive whens someone makes a logic-based attack against gender dysphoria, because I don't see that as an honest means of taking arguments down. You can make 100% logic-based arguments for trans people.

Pls make me a case for trans people without factoring emotions into the equation whatsoever

I'd imagine the differences in the brains of trans people compared with the brains of cisgender people in terms of the demonstrable incongruity of body and mind could be a case that doesn't involve personal emotions.

Is there even such a thing as a 100% logical moral argument? You have to start with some set of axioms, and emotion, I think, always comes into play there. Are more humans or less humans better? Is happiness or sadness more important? More suicides, or fewer? How do we determine which is right and which is wrong based on our observations? A value judgement always comes into play.

In any case, I still think challenger is deluding himself if he thinks it's not worth it to socially accept transgenderism because we might find a better solution to dysphoria in the future. His complete lack of regard for demonstrated effectiveness in the statistics is completely illogical. There is no logical argument against transgenderism. The only way you can come to a different conclusion is to begin with a different set of axioms.

Quote from: Winy on October 26, 2015, 05:27:01 PM

Quote from: Cindo on October 26, 2015, 05:10:02 PM

Quote from: Winy on October 26, 2015, 05:05:25 PM

Quote from: Cindo on October 26, 2015, 03:49:12 PM

I love how people act like "logic" is some big trump card and that emotions should have no play in anything. "HURR DURR WELL YOU CAN ONLY JUSTIFY THIS FROM AN EMOTIONAL STANDPOINT AND NOT A PURELY LOGICAL ONE SO IT DOESN'T EXIST AND I'M GONNA KEEP BEING AN ASSHOLE." Sorry, is the human race populated entirely full of sociopaths? It isn't, since that was a rhetorical question, and trying to act like emotion doesn't play a roll in anything we do and that it excuses you being a bigoted cuntbag just because it's not a purely logical action - especially in the realm of MENTAL DISEASES THAT ARE HEAVILY EFFECTED BY A PERSON'S EMOTIONS - is just fucking stupid, narrow-minded, and a poor justification for hatespeech, as most other things revolving around transphobia are.

I wouldn't even say there's a need to get defensive whens someone makes a logic-based attack against gender dysphoria, because I don't see that as an honest means of taking arguments down. You can make 100% logic-based arguments for trans people.

Pls make me a case for trans people without factoring emotions into the equation whatsoever

"Nobody's getting hurt."

There?

That's not for, fam, that's just not against

I disagree.

"Nobody's getting hurt and gender dysphoric people are less likely to off themselves."

Bam. Easy. Only assumptions are that nobody should be hurt and that preventing depression/suicide is good.

Depression and many of the effects of gender dysphoria deal with emotion, and that opinion is, thus, answering the question based on a certain emotional standpoint.

Quote from: Tsirist on October 26, 2015, 06:04:15 PM

"Nobody's getting hurt and gender dysphoric people are less likely to off themselves."

Bam. Easy. Only assumptions are that nobody should be hurt and that preventing depression/suicide is good.

Depression and many of the effects of gender dysphoria deal with emotion, and that opinion is, thus, answering the question based on a certain emotional standpoint.

Eh. Using the diagnosis criteria for Major Depression as an argument isn't emotionally based. It logically follows that, being that hormone therapy and surgery for Gender Dysphoria alleviate or eliminate the accompanying MDD, such treatments are the most effective thus far medically known.

I guess I don't really know enough about the arguments to see where logical aspects and emotional aspects mix or don't mix.

People always try to make arguments purely based on fact and removing all emotion whatsoever from the equation

is that not how it should be done

Why should we accept transgenders if they can't even accept themselves?

Yeah tbh we should basically just kill everyone that has self-confidence issues

Genocide when?

This also may have set a new record for the dumbest argument I've ever heard against trans individuals. Good job.

You guys are proving that my logic on this is stupid, which is just the point that I'm trying to prove

People always try to make arguments purely based on fact and removing all emotion whatsoever from the equation, with arguments like "WELL THEY STILL HAVE MALE CHROMOSOMES SO I CAN'T BE EXPECTED TO JUST LIE" and shit like that, as if emotions play no part on either side of any argument.

Of course emotion is involved, but it can't the driving force in argument. If your position is entirely emotional vs logical, then you're not going to go anywhere with it. There is quite a bit of logical support for transgenderism, so I see no reason why you should need to rely on the emotional aspect.

And the only time biological sex should matter (in this situation, at the least) is when it enters into medical territory. When you go to the doctor, knowing the biology side is important regardless of transitioning status. It can make the difference between the right diagnosis and the wrong diagnosis. Outside of that whether you have XX or XY chromosomes is irrelevant, especially if we're talking about social interaction.

Quote from: Tsirist on October 26, 2015, 06:04:15 PM

"Nobody's getting hurt and gender dysphoric people are less likely to off themselves."

Bam. Easy. Only assumptions are that nobody should be hurt and that preventing depression/suicide is good.

Depression and many of the effects of gender dysphoria deal with emotion, and that opinion is, thus, answering the question based on a certain emotional standpoint.

Well no shit, but again, how else would you proceed with making a judgement as to what is right or wrong? If I can't consider the number of gender dysphoric and transgendered people committing suicide (removing utility from society at large), can't consider their status in depression . . . what else is there to weigh?

This is some silly fixing of bounds. Challenger was onto something when he decided human happiness couldn't be a factor in proceeding with the rational process in this thread. I'm still not sure what we're supposed to base our arguments on then if the premises are not allowed to relate in ANY way to happiness.

Quote from: Tsirist on October 26, 2015, 06:49:37 PM

I'm still not sure what we're supposed to base our arguments on then if the premises are not allowed to relate in ANY way to happiness.

Research showing that the current treatments for Gender Incongruence result in the best alleviation or elimination of side effects arising from it, including MDD and BDD.

Depression doesn't preclude happiness; it involves a chemical or logical imbalance in which empty or negative feelings outweigh the positive.

I have stated numerous times in this thread that research shows transgenderism to be an effective solution to dysphoria. I cited research and statistics, yet somehow because it demonstrates that decline in depression my argument relates to happiness and is therefore invalid.

I agree with you on every point but according to these people that argument is not allowed within the scope of this thread. I understand that depression is a physical phenomenon that causes a negative trend in feelings; however, since evidently we are arguing something concerning these feelings and happiness, this is not allowed here.

Again, I agree with you. This is for everyone else that says that an argument without any sort of emotion attached to the premises should be able to demonstrate that transgenderism has a purpose.

Quote from: Cindo on October 26, 2015, 06:31:34 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 26, 2015, 06:28:59 PM

Quote from: Cindo on October 26, 2015, 06:24:11 PM

People always try to make arguments purely based on fact and removing all emotion whatsoever from the equation

is that not how it should be done

you wanna answer my question or

I literally just had a discussion on why that's stupid