Why I oppose the European Union

More Than Mortal · March 30, 2015, 07:08:26 PM

Seemed fitting given the new avatar, and the potential referendum we Brits will have in a couple of years' time.

The Eurozone, since 2008, has categorically remained the weakest link in the world economy. Despite historic praise for the economies of Germany and France, consumer confidence remains weak, and stagnation is a very pressing reality. For years, the influence of Germany has been exerted over other European nations; austerity has been single-mindedly implemented--especially in periphery nations like Greece, where debt is very high. And yet, only this year has the economy seen any pick-up with Mario Draghi's announcement of QE, much to the ire of the Germans. Austerity without monetary offset--especially imposed wholesale across a supranational economy--is one of the best recipes for disaster you could ever have.

As an aside, it has the fortunate consequence of proving me essentially correct in my assertion that the economic problems we face are monetary, not financial, debt-based or structural.

Depression-level unemployment rates eat at the social and economic hearts of various peripheral countries; 14pc in Portugal, 25pc in Spain and Greece. 10pc in Ireland and 12pc in Italy. The International Monetary Fund basically apologised in 2013 for its austerity recommendations. Despite, of course, fiscal austerity being a valid response to sky-high deficits and unsustainable levels of debt, provided monetary expansion. And, as I said, the Bundesbank has made sure the ECB stays tighter than a nun's cunt.

One of the problems, of course, of monetary policy failures is that they're imposed upon the whole economy. If the Federal Reserve underestimates the need for liquidity in the economy (as it did in late 2007 and 1929) it can spark off a recession. If you combine that with a looming debt crisis (as it did in 2008) it can throw the whole financial system into chaos. The problems are only magnified with monetary unions. And, of course, when you have a serious looming problem with sovereign debt--as with Greece--which is again combined with monetary tightness: problems. Not only did the Recession tip the Greek debt issue over the edge, but the Greek debt issue futher contributed to Europe's debt problems as a whole, as financial intermediation was thrown under the bus and confidence-based expectations in the market were destroyed.

In terms of politics, the European Union is undemocratic. The European Parliament is no parliament; it lacks the ability to propose legislation, which itself comes from the unelected European Commission. While the powers of the Parliament have been strengthened in recent years to hold the Commission accountable, it simply isn't enough. The European Commission encouraged the Portuguese government to ignore a ruling by the Constitutional Court which rejected the austerity measures, on the threat of reduced funding.

In order for the European Union to actually work, it would need significant power at its centre--which is also accountable--a union on fiscal policy and a continent-wide safety net. None of these are even feasible, or worth their potential costs by any metric. It's a failed experiment, and it's time we treated it like one.

Spoiler

>europe is the weakest link in world economy
>austerity has been single-mindedly applied and failed miserably
>unemployment remains sky-high
>debt problems were exacerbated by the european central bank
>all as a result of having a collegial international arrangement
>it is undemocratic and inserts itself into other countries' systems of governance

Not Comms Officer · March 30, 2015, 07:11:06 PM

Really? The EU Parliament can't propose legislation? Then what is even the point of having an EU Parliament if it can only serve as a rubber stamp.

Alright, I'll agree with you that the EU is undemocratic. That shit needs to be cleaned up.

March 30, 2015, 07:18:52 PM

Yeah, it's even worse than the UN at this point.

Not Comms Officer · March 30, 2015, 07:19:31 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on March 30, 2015, 07:18:52 PM

Better than the UN.

More like not comparable to the UN, since the only thing the UN has the power to do is to bitch and whine.

March 30, 2015, 07:20:23 PM

Quote from: GethKhilafah on March 30, 2015, 07:19:31 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on March 30, 2015, 07:18:52 PM
Better than the UN.
More like not comparable to the UN, since the only thing the UN has the power to do is to bitch and whine.

I edited it, I'd actually say it's worse.

And no, the UN does have the whole "UN Charter", which is just a testament to fascism.

More Than Mortal · March 30, 2015, 07:21:30 PM

inb4 jidf shill flee

Not Comms Officer · March 30, 2015, 07:24:08 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 07:21:30 PM

inb4 jidf shill flee

Don't you talk about Flee that way!

More Than Mortal · March 30, 2015, 07:38:51 PM

Oh!

Also, the cunts outlawed menthols.

Not Comms Officer · March 30, 2015, 07:39:50 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 07:38:51 PM

Oh!

Also, the cunts outlawed menthols.

Oh, now we know the REAL reason you hate the EU!

Everything else was just a cover for your bitter buttmad.

Sandtrap · March 30, 2015, 07:43:32 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 07:38:51 PM

Oh!

Also, the cunts outlawed menthols.

Remember meta. Be a minty flavored cigarette drug lord.

More Than Mortal · March 30, 2015, 07:45:06 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on March 30, 2015, 07:43:32 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 07:38:51 PM
Oh!

Also, the cunts outlawed menthols.

Remember meta. Be a minty flavored cigarette drug lord.

I'll be a British version of Walter White.

But instead of Blue Sky. . .

Green Leaves. Yes. I like it.

gats · March 30, 2015, 07:51:07 PM

what are the positives of being part of the EU?

Other than easy access to other countries in the union.

(i love the avatar btw)

Not Comms Officer · March 30, 2015, 07:51:17 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 07:45:06 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on March 30, 2015, 07:43:32 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 07:38:51 PM
Oh!

Also, the cunts outlawed menthols.

Remember meta. Be a minty flavored cigarette drug lord.
I'll be a British version of Walter White.

But instead of Blue Sky. . .

Green Leaves. Yes. I like it.

MI6 just saw that comment. A James Bond-assault team has just been dispatched to your location.

Have a nice day.

More Than Mortal · March 30, 2015, 07:53:33 PM

Quote from: gats on March 30, 2015, 07:51:07 PM

what are the positives of being part of the EU?

If I had to give two big positives it would be the protection of online privacy and standing as a united bloc against the likes of Russia.

I don't think they're substantial enough to counteract the errors mentioned in the OP, but I have to give them credit for it. Flee could probably tell you more about the legal stuff.

cxfhvxgkcf-56:7 · March 30, 2015, 08:02:06 PM

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More Than Mortal · March 30, 2015, 08:04:50 PM

Quote from: S\ash on March 30, 2015, 08:02:06 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 07:53:33 PM
Quote from: gats on March 30, 2015, 07:51:07 PM
what are the positives of being part of the EU?
standing as a united bloc against the likes of Russia.
I don't see how you list that as a positive when NATO exists for that purpose.

Which is one of the reasons it's not substantial enough for me to think it game-changing. I'd rather see NATO strengthened.

Release · March 30, 2015, 08:05:50 PM

As much as your argument is reasonable and founded, think of the alternative to what we have currently

Literally no European Union whatsoever

Can you imagine the chaos?

Also, I'm not sure if increasing legislative powers of the EU Parliament=more sound overall financial system. The problem lies elsewhere when we examine the financial crisis.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · March 30, 2015, 08:29:58 PM

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cxfhvxgkcf-56:7 · March 30, 2015, 08:33:26 PM

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Not Comms Officer · March 30, 2015, 08:34:15 PM

Quote from: Arm The Mob on March 30, 2015, 08:29:58 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 08:04:50 PM
Quote from: S\ash on March 30, 2015, 08:02:06 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 07:53:33 PM
Quote from: gats on March 30, 2015, 07:51:07 PM
what are the positives of being part of the EU?
standing as a united bloc against the likes of Russia.
I don't see how you list that as a positive when NATO exists for that purpose.
Which is one of the reasons it's not substantial enough for me to think it game-changing. I'd rather see NATO strengthened.
NATO is a fucking joke right now, and will remain so until some mechanism is developed to penalize members who are not meeting their obligations.

A very unsettling number of members are spending less than the required 2% of their GDP on defense. I think only like four of them actually met that requirement in 2013- The US, UK, Estonia, and fucking Greece.

Europeans are happy to accuse Americans of war-mongering and dick-waving, with our troops based in so many peaceful European countries, but the sad truth is America is basically doing all of the heavy lifting.

lol

More Than Mortal · March 30, 2015, 08:35:49 PM

Quote from: Deathtohappiness on March 30, 2015, 08:05:50 PM

Literally no European Union whatsoever

Can you imagine the chaos?

Yes, all the chaos of no undemocratic bureaucrats or ill-thought-out economic problems. Terrifying.

Quote

Also, I'm not sure if increasing legislative powers of the EU Parliament=more sound overall financial system. The problem lies elsewhere when we examine the financial crisis.

I didn't say it would.

And the problem with the financial crisis were excessive levels of government debt coupled with a tight monetary policy. As I laid out in the OP.

Not Comms Officer · March 30, 2015, 08:36:20 PM

Quote from: S\ash on March 30, 2015, 08:33:26 PM

Quote from: Arm The Mob on March 30, 2015, 08:29:58 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 08:04:50 PM
Quote from: S\ash on March 30, 2015, 08:02:06 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 07:53:33 PM
Quote from: gats on March 30, 2015, 07:51:07 PM
what are the positives of being part of the EU?
standing as a united bloc against the likes of Russia.
I don't see how you list that as a positive when NATO exists for that purpose.
Which is one of the reasons it's not substantial enough for me to think it game-changing. I'd rather see NATO strengthened.
NATO is a fucking joke right now, and will remain so until some mechanism is developed to penalize members who are not meeting their obligations.

A very unsettling number of members are spending less than the required 2% of their GDP on defense. I think only like four of them actually met that requirement in 2013- The US, UK, Estonia, and fucking Greece.

Europeans are happy to accuse Americans of war-mongering and dick-waving, with our troops based in so many peaceful European countries, but the sad truth is America is basically doing all of the heavy lifting.
If it wasn't for NATO Russia would have steamrolled eastern Europe again by now.

Not really. Russia has declined a great deal since 1991. Even now despite their partial recovery, they have nowhere near the strength needed to actually steamroll over Eastern Europe.

Unless you were talking back in the days of the USSR...

More Than Mortal · March 30, 2015, 08:36:26 PM

Quote from: GethKhilafah on March 30, 2015, 08:34:15 PM

lol

He isn't wrong. The US has essentially been subsidising European defence since the Cold War.

Not Comms Officer · March 30, 2015, 08:37:40 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 08:36:26 PM

Quote from: GethKhilafah on March 30, 2015, 08:34:15 PM
lol
He isn't wrong. The US has essentially been subsidising European defence since the Cold War.

I know. I just find it funny that most European countries are blatantly refusing to dump pointless sums of money into their armies in defiance of the US.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · March 30, 2015, 08:39:46 PM

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Not Comms Officer · March 30, 2015, 08:42:13 PM

Quote from: Arm The Mob on March 30, 2015, 08:39:46 PM

Quote from: S\ash on March 30, 2015, 08:33:26 PM
Quote from: Arm The Mob on March 30, 2015, 08:29:58 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 08:04:50 PM
Quote from: S\ash on March 30, 2015, 08:02:06 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 07:53:33 PM
Quote from: gats on March 30, 2015, 07:51:07 PM
what are the positives of being part of the EU?
standing as a united bloc against the likes of Russia.
I don't see how you list that as a positive when NATO exists for that purpose.
Which is one of the reasons it's not substantial enough for me to think it game-changing. I'd rather see NATO strengthened.
NATO is a fucking joke right now, and will remain so until some mechanism is developed to penalize members who are not meeting their obligations.

A very unsettling number of members are spending less than the required 2% of their GDP on defense. I think only like four of them actually met that requirement in 2013- The US, UK, Estonia, and fucking Greece.

Europeans are happy to accuse Americans of war-mongering and dick-waving, with our troops based in so many peaceful European countries, but the sad truth is America is basically doing all of the heavy lifting.
If it wasn't for NATO Russia would have steamrolled eastern Europe again by now.
If it wasn't for the US and Article 5, you mean.
None of the European NATO countries except for France and the UK are powerful enough to make invasion a bad idea on their own, but the threat of US intervention is enough to keep Putin out.

NATO works in that sense, but the idea is supposed to be collective defense, not Daddy USA beating up whoever fucks with poor little Lithuania or Slovakia. NATO members should be pulling their own weight, or at least making an effort to. Generally, though, they are not, and the expectation seems to be for the World Police to swoop in and save the day.

Well, yeah. I don't see how that's a problem. The US gets an excuse to spend more sums of money on their military and defense like how they always love to, and Europe doesn't have to spend as much on their military. So it's a win-win relationship.

More Than Mortal · March 30, 2015, 08:44:31 PM

Quote from: Arm The Mob on March 30, 2015, 08:39:46 PM

None of the European NATO countries except for France and the UK are powerful enough to make invasion a bad idea on their own,

Don't be so kind.

We're slipping below the 2pc.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · March 30, 2015, 08:45:08 PM

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ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · March 30, 2015, 08:49:19 PM

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Not Comms Officer · March 30, 2015, 08:52:58 PM

Quote from: Arm The Mob on March 30, 2015, 08:45:08 PM

Quote from: GethKhilafah on March 30, 2015, 08:42:13 PM
Quote from: Arm The Mob on March 30, 2015, 08:39:46 PM
Quote from: S\ash on March 30, 2015, 08:33:26 PM
Quote from: Arm The Mob on March 30, 2015, 08:29:58 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 08:04:50 PM
Quote from: S\ash on March 30, 2015, 08:02:06 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 30, 2015, 07:53:33 PM
Quote from: gats on March 30, 2015, 07:51:07 PM
what are the positives of being part of the EU?
standing as a united bloc against the likes of Russia.
I don't see how you list that as a positive when NATO exists for that purpose.
Which is one of the reasons it's not substantial enough for me to think it game-changing. I'd rather see NATO strengthened.
NATO is a fucking joke right now, and will remain so until some mechanism is developed to penalize members who are not meeting their obligations.

A very unsettling number of members are spending less than the required 2% of their GDP on defense. I think only like four of them actually met that requirement in 2013- The US, UK, Estonia, and fucking Greece.

Europeans are happy to accuse Americans of war-mongering and dick-waving, with our troops based in so many peaceful European countries, but the sad truth is America is basically doing all of the heavy lifting.
If it wasn't for NATO Russia would have steamrolled eastern Europe again by now.
If it wasn't for the US and Article 5, you mean.
None of the European NATO countries except for France and the UK are powerful enough to make invasion a bad idea on their own, but the threat of US intervention is enough to keep Putin out.

NATO works in that sense, but the idea is supposed to be collective defense, not Daddy USA beating up whoever fucks with poor little Lithuania or Slovakia. NATO members should be pulling their own weight, or at least making an effort to. Generally, though, they are not, and the expectation seems to be for the World Police to swoop in and save the day.
Well, yeah. I don't see how that's a problem. The US gets an excuse to spend more sums of money on their military and defense like how they always love to, and Europe doesn't have to spend as much on their military. So it's a win-win relationship.
I'm really not happy to see my tax dollars going to protect some irrelevant European backwater full of cucks too pussified to pay for their own defense. The US wouldn't need to spend such a fuckhueg amount on defense if it's supposed allies would stop leeching off of it.

sux 2 b u lol

Why don't you go to Europe and tell them to spend more on their militaries then?