I know this seems extensively similar to the other thread of Kiyo's, but I wanted to create a thread in which I lay forth a "complete collection" of propositions and pieces of evidence to suggest why one should view Israel as the morally superior force in the region.

So, first of all, allow me to express my genuine opinion that both sides have serious faults I'm willing to admit to. However, it seems clear to me that it's a case of horse shit vs bird shit and which one you'd rather end up with on your face (Hamas is the horse shit).

First and foremost, Israel gets a lot of flack for just bombing the shit out Gaza. Which is, of course, fair enough--I can see why that would upset people. However, what most people don't seem to realise in these instances is that Hamas fires rockets from residential areas, essentially forcing the Israeli's hands into retaliating against an area (consider how densely populated Gaza is) which will yield massive civilian casualties. It doesn't seem to me especially questionable why Hamas do this; they want civilian casualties, and if you disagree you can tell that to the women they've used as human shields.

It's quite clear that Hamas is only interested in one thing: the advancement of it's toxic, fundamentalist and pan-Islamic ideology. It is so blinded by anti-Semitic hatred that it willfully worked 160 children to death in the construction of tunnels, with which they attack Israel. It isn't surprising either, the Charter of Hamas (apparently disowned by the group) explicitly refers to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion an anti-Semitic fabrication created in Tsarist Russia under Nicholas II and later adopted by the Nazis.

It's not at all a mystery as to why Hamas is the way that it is, either, and no that isn't Israel's fault. Israel occupied Gaza following the Six-day War in 1967, and actually showed tolerance to Islamic activists (lifting the restrictions of the previous Egyptian rulers) while it pursued the secular PLO, which at that time was considered a terrorist group for not recognising Israel's right to exist. Hamas originally began as the sort of "Gazan branch" of the Muslim Brotherhood (founded in 1928 as a pan-Islamic group), where it extended charities and improved education. With the backing of the Israeli Civil Administration, the number of Mosques in Gaza doubled between '67-'86.

The leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, had also founded a militant wing which was recognised as a charity by Israel and allowed to build infrastructure like schools, mosques and a library. Hamas, however, wasn't founded proper until the First Intifada, when the Palestinians rose up when an IDF truck struck a car, killing four Palestinians. It's generally thought that economic grievances, as well as population dynamics, was the main cause of the Palestinians' grievances.

Hamas first began conducting terrorist activities in the 90s, against both military and civilian targets. It began suicide bombing in the West Bank, and then in Israel following the mass murders by Baruch Goldstein in 1994. Although these actions by Hamas violated the Oslo Accords, PA President Arafat was reluctant to do so and some analysts believe he chose not to (read: Arafat's War).

Hamas moderated itself for the 2005 elections, and managed to win a plurality. Israel disengaged from Gaza (as well as having 9,000 Israelis forcibly expelled from where they were living in the region), and Hamas would go on to fight the secular Fatah, win and then begin enforcing Islamic law in the region.

A lot of you are probably wondering why I'm only discussing Hamas and not the Palestinians at large. Well, unfortunately, Hamas isn't as reviled by the Palestinians as we'd like them to be; they enjoy a support from 89pc of Palestinians, who we know are already radicalised as 68pc claim suicide bombing against civilians in the defence of Islam is justified.

We can't afford to surrender to this sort of fundamentalism.

Are there any caveats to Israel's handling of the situation? And not "blessings in disguise" type of fault, but true errors that they are making. I'm not doubting your line of reasoning, I'd just like a clearer picture of both sides.

Are there any caveats to Israel's handling of the situation? And not "blessings in disguise" type of fault, but true errors that they are making. I'm not doubting your line of reasoning, I'd just like a clearer picture of both sides.

The unbelievable levels of xenophobia among Jewish Israelis is the most immediate problem.

Also, the use of white phosphorous is something which disturbs me greatly.

Not to mention that there are 1 million Arabs that currently live in Israel, so the false narrative of this fascistic xenophobic state that Israel is constantly painted out to be is quite frankly disingenuous and fallacious.

I dunno...

Last year, a grand total of 1 million Syrian refugees went to Lebanon, a further 750,000 going to Turkey, both of these countries bordering Syria since the civil war began. It should be noted that Lebanon already has ~950,000 Palestinian refugees since the war of '67. Israel, another neighbor to Syria which was better suited to handle an influx of refugees at this scale took a grand total of...4. IIRC, 3 were wounded, and after receiving treatment were all sent back into Syria.

Also, If Israel really wanted to annex Gaza and the West Bank, they could with ease in military terms. There are some intelligent (maybe high ranking officials? I can't remember very well) that claim the reason they haven't yet is solely because if they did, they'd have to make them Israeli citizens, and that would mean Israel would no longer be a Jewish State, as Muslims would outnumber them (as well as the obvious fears of a coup from them as a result).
I'd love to give a source on this, but my memory has failed me once again. It was I believe a BBC documentary, I think Panorama from early 2014/2013.

I sincerely doubt that.

I think the real reason they haven't annexed Gaza yet is because of the global condemnation and sanctions Israel would receive as a result. Not to mention a good portion of Palestinians support Hamas' cause anyway, making it an exercise in futility.

True, but seeing as Israel don't really give more than one fuck what the UN condemns at the moment with the civilian casualties coming out of Gaza, I'm not so sure would they care afterwards if they annexed it. America would still back them anyway.

Quote from: SuperIrish on January 05, 2015, 11:32:19 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on January 05, 2015, 11:22:33 AM

I sincerely doubt that.

I think the real reason they haven't annexed Gaza yet is because of the global condemnation and sanctions Israel would receive as a result. Not to mention a good portion of Palestinians support Hamas' cause anyway, making it an exercise in futility.

True, but seeing as Israel don't really give more than one fuck what the UN condemns at the moment with the civilian casualties coming out of Gaza, I'm not so sure would they care afterwards if they annexed it. America would still back them anyway.

It wouldn't be just the UN though.

Hell, Russia's economy has spiraled into one great big inflated clusterfuck because of the multitude of sanctions it has received as a result of the annexation of Crimea. That was Ukraine for fuck sake. Imagine how the world would respond if it was Gaza, the region consistently portrayed as the most oppressed fucking strip of land in the entirety of the Middle East.

Israel can kick the snarling dog all it wants knowing daddy USA has a shotgun trained on it.

Nobody will fuck with Israel until the US steps back, and the Jewish lobby in the US is too powerful for that to ever happen.

Quote from: Madman Mordo on January 05, 2015, 11:35:04 AM

Quote from: SuperIrish on January 05, 2015, 11:32:19 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on January 05, 2015, 11:22:33 AM

I sincerely doubt that.

I think the real reason they haven't annexed Gaza yet is because of the global condemnation and sanctions Israel would receive as a result. Not to mention a good portion of Palestinians support Hamas' cause anyway, making it an exercise in futility.

True, but seeing as Israel don't really give more than one fuck what the UN condemns at the moment with the civilian casualties coming out of Gaza, I'm not so sure would they care afterwards if they annexed it. America would still back them anyway.

It wouldn't be just the UN though.

Hell, Russia's economy has spiraled into one great big inflated clusterfuck because of the multitude of sanctions it has received as a result of the annexation of Crimea. That was Ukraine for fuck sake. Imagine how the world would respond if it was Gaza, the region consistently portrayed as the most oppressed fucking strip of land in the entirety of the Middle East.

Israel can kick the snarling dog all it wants knowing daddy USA has a shotgun trained on it.

Nobody will fuck with Israel until the US steps back, and the Jewish lobby in the US is too powerful for that to ever happen.

Do you alternate personas between accounts because you're autistic, or are you genuinely schizophrenic or something?

Quote from: Madman Mordo on January 05, 2015, 11:54:00 AM

Quote from: RustingFloor on January 05, 2015, 11:39:18 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on January 05, 2015, 11:35:04 AM

Quote from: SuperIrish on January 05, 2015, 11:32:19 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on January 05, 2015, 11:22:33 AM

I sincerely doubt that.

I think the real reason they haven't annexed Gaza yet is because of the global condemnation and sanctions Israel would receive as a result. Not to mention a good portion of Palestinians support Hamas' cause anyway, making it an exercise in futility.

True, but seeing as Israel don't really give more than one fuck what the UN condemns at the moment with the civilian casualties coming out of Gaza, I'm not so sure would they care afterwards if they annexed it. America would still back them anyway.

It wouldn't be just the UN though.

Hell, Russia's economy has spiraled into one great big inflated clusterfuck because of the multitude of sanctions it has received as a result of the annexation of Crimea. That was Ukraine for fuck sake. Imagine how the world would respond if it was Gaza, the region consistently portrayed as the most oppressed fucking strip of land in the entirety of the Middle East.

Israel can kick the snarling dog all it wants knowing daddy USA has a shotgun trained on it.

Nobody will fuck with Israel until the US steps back, and the Jewish lobby in the US is too powerful for that to ever happen.

Do you alternate personas between accounts because you're autistic, or are you genuinely schizophrenic or something?

I don't alternate personas?

The Lemy account had a persona but I dropped that when Ark started telling everyone who I was.

Everyone knew who you were m9. It wasn't exactly inconspicuous.

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 05, 2015, 11:51:58 AM

If Israel, a nominally western country, does it then it's all hands on deck for the international condemnation.

Well, yes.

Israel is held to a higher standard because it is a democratic and stable nation, affluent in wealth. That's not to say the crime in (insert hell hole of a country here) isn't just as bad, if not worse.

I wasn't talking so much about various governments condemning Israel or Hamas, I'm talking about average people--I should've made that clear.

I mean, there are people who don't even think Israel should exist and want the Palestinians to claim all of the land. Yet, these same people will just palm off any point you make about Saddam Hussein, the Taliban in Kabul or even Slobodan Milosevic.

Look - if there was a war and the Jews/Israel conquered Palestine initially, I'd be for it. But as history goes, the UN pretty much came in, looked around, and said "Yeah, we know you have a country here Palestinians, but we're going to take a good chunk of that from you, sound good?"

What's your point? That's no justification whatsoever to allow Israel to be abolished as a country.

Israel, historically, has been very reserved, tolerant and patient with the trials and tribulations they faced in the region. Even before the establishment of the State of Israel, at least 300 Jews died in Mandatory Palestine during the Arab Revolts purely because the people there were anti-Semitic. Fuck, they were attacked by five Arab States the day after the British left. However the State of Israel was founded, and whoever's fault it was, it's no justification for just leaving a country of eight million people at the mercy of wolves.

EDIT: I just realised what you said, too. Palestine had been under British rule since 1922, it wasn't as if we just waltzed into a foreign country, went "this'll do" and plonked down a Jewish nation.

Leave it to the mercy of "wolves"? No - but countries like the United States need to stop funneling millions (if not billions) into Israel's military and government, while also preaching that they want to achieve a peaceful solution. Continuing to build up a military which has historically proven it's dominance will not bring peace - only more strife.

You mean the dominance it clearly has at the moment, which hasn't resulted in the wholesale destruction of Gaza that people like to drum up fears about. I don't know what you're talking about "historically proven", either. The Israeli government of Gaza established in 1967 was exceptionally tolerant of Islamic activists--one of the reason Hamas exists, which I'm sure I included in the OP, is that it was originally considered a charity and allowed to build mosques and hospitals and libraries.

Not like Palestine had much of a choice in that matter - that simply came out of World War 1 and the collapse of the Ottomans.

Okay, but it's not a reason which counts against the Israelis, and nor does it justify the anti-Semitism that we saw as early as 1920 in the Nebi Musa riots.

I'm not debating that the Muslim's antisemitism was justified at all then - but it was hardly them alone at the time.

I'm not saying it was.

I'm saying, taking the Palestine region, one contending group was gripped by religious fundamentalism and a horrible sense of xenophobia while the other was not.