Why I'm not a feminist (let's kill the myths, people)

More Than Mortal · March 24, 2015, 07:02:22 PM

First and foremost, the gender wage gap (as a result of discrimination) has been pretty much effectively refuted as nothing more than an egregious myth. When you control for things like aggregate choices across a group of people, the wage gap virtually vanishes. When controlling for background and exit rate, women are promoted more aggressively. Not to mention, the way the wage gap is calculated massively distorts the results; basing the calculation on levels of hourly pay gives a much better, and much more conservative picture.

But let's say that women are pressured by society into doing different jobs, or leaving, and that there is a certain degree of cultural conditioning. This doesn't even begin to account for the fact that incredibly egalitarian countries like the Netherlands still witness a significant deviation in the risk tolerance of men compared to women. And it doesn't explain how more egalitarian countries on average have more sex-segregated professions.

A 2015 ILO report also concluded that discrimination is one of the lowest rated reasons women give for a lack of advancement in the workplace, and male-female differences in competitiveness actually go a long way in explaining any substantial discrepancy.

Men and women differ across the world in personality, but most of all in egalitarian, developed societies. Maybe, just maybe, the economic differences we see are actually a result of the Western world coming a long way in the liberation of women. The exercise of freedom is the causal factor here, not some imaginary patriarchy.

Turkey · March 24, 2015, 07:41:51 PM

Addressing the title, are you saying you're not a feminist because women are already equal in western societies? I think there are a lot of other factors besides the wage gap, which I agree has been thoroughly rebutted in many respected publications.

More Than Mortal · March 24, 2015, 07:59:33 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on March 24, 2015, 07:41:51 PM

Addressing the title, are you saying you're not a feminist because women are already equal in western societies?

Pretty much. Sexism, no doubt, still exists. Just not in any institutionalised or systemic way.

Mordo · March 24, 2015, 10:44:25 PM

YouTube

Anonymous (User Deleted) · March 25, 2015, 10:05:14 AM

If feminism benefits everyone, I'd like to see what feminists have done to help men.

But having a feminist mother, I'm well-acquainted with the 'pit of lies' (that was a joke):

>"women should be allowed to make decisions about their own bodies"
>"but male circumcision should be mandatory because uncut is gross"
>"women should be equal to men in the family structure"
>turn a blind eye to the fact that usually, women usually get the kids in the event of divorce
>"men should treat women equally"
>"men should hold the door for women but not the other way around"
>"only men should have to physically exert themselves"
>turn a blind eye to the fact that usually in the current legal structure, women are allowed to hit men, but men aren't allowed to hit women
>turn a blind eye to the fact that only men have to sign up for selective service

I've yet to meet a feminist who's actually committed to the cause of gender equality. It's barely even a 'rights movement' so much as it's armchair activism. There's a lot of ignorance to the situations where women take privilege--it would never occur to them that that's still not a fair or equal scenario.

Flee · March 25, 2015, 12:08:31 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Mordo · March 25, 2015, 12:16:56 PM

Quote from: Flee on March 25, 2015, 12:08:31 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 25, 2015, 10:05:14 AM
If feminism benefits everyone, I'd like to see what feminists have done to help men.
The idea is that by getting rid of gender stereotypes, men would also no longer be forced into the "manly man" role that dictates that men always have to be strong, in charge and free of emotion and that while tomboyish girls are fine, feminine boys are unacceptable.

But the problem with this is that gender roles and stereotypes, on average, tend to actually be true. It's been scientifically documented that male children tend to gravitate towards boisterous and masculine toys such as cars and gadgets, whereas female children display a preference towards nurturing and caring with dolls like they would as mothers. Indeed, this isn't just exclusive to humanity, it's been recorded within the Animal Kingdom too.

The fact that feminism wants to dismantle this is highly unscientific and downright detrimental, to be perfectly honest.

cxfhvxgkcf-56:7 · March 25, 2015, 12:18:05 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Flee · March 25, 2015, 12:23:41 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Mordo · March 25, 2015, 12:37:12 PM

Quote from: Flee on March 25, 2015, 12:23:41 PM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on March 25, 2015, 12:16:56 PM
Quote from: Flee on March 25, 2015, 12:08:31 PM
Quote from: Kupo on March 25, 2015, 10:05:14 AM
If feminism benefits everyone, I'd like to see what feminists have done to help men.
The idea is that by getting rid of gender stereotypes, men would also no longer be forced into the "manly man" role that dictates that men always have to be strong, in charge and free of emotion and that while tomboyish girls are fine, feminine boys are unacceptable.
But the problem with this is that gender roles and stereotypes, on average, tend to actually be true. It's been scientifically documented that male children tend to gravitate towards boisterous and masculine toys such as cars and gadgets, whereas female children display a preference towards nurturing and caring with dolls like they would as mothers. Indeed, this isn't just exclusive to humanity, it's been recorded within the Animal Kingdom too.

The fact that feminism wants to dismantle this is highly unscientific and downright detrimental, to be perfectly honest.
It's not really about dismantling this though, it's about accepting more than just that. While it's obviously true that there's differences between male and female children and their interests in general, the fact that anything that strays from this is regarded as something obscene that should be discouraged and looked down upon is pretty shit and harmful to men just the same.

Which is usually brought about by religious conservative dogma, which I don't see feminism being able to combat any time soon. Honestly, what's needed is a gradual, cultural and educational shift to alleviate the stigmas attached to straying away from gender roles, not third wave "games and magazines are sexist" tumblr feminism which seems to be the norm now.

challengerX · March 25, 2015, 12:39:05 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Flee · March 25, 2015, 12:43:08 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Flee · March 25, 2015, 12:44:02 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

challengerX · March 25, 2015, 12:46:04 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Flee · March 25, 2015, 12:47:22 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Mordo · March 25, 2015, 12:47:55 PM

Quote from: Flee on March 25, 2015, 12:44:02 PM

Quote from: challengerX on March 25, 2015, 12:39:05 PM
Femininity in men should not be encourage or even accepted. It's wrong.
You serious?

I think what he means is that femininity shouldn't be placed with higher value than masculinity, especially in regards to boys who, as was aforementioned, tend to display masculine traits more than feminine traits on average. I don't think he actually objects to boys who are inherently feminine.

challengerX · March 25, 2015, 12:52:18 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Flee · March 25, 2015, 12:55:28 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

challengerX · March 25, 2015, 01:01:34 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Flee · March 25, 2015, 01:03:47 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

challengerX · March 25, 2015, 01:06:13 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Isara · March 25, 2015, 01:09:08 PM

Your source doesn't load, Meta. (http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf)

More Than Mortal · March 25, 2015, 01:12:28 PM

Quote from: Isara on March 25, 2015, 01:09:08 PM

Your source doesn't load, Meta. (http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf)

Sites down, at the moment.

Flee · March 25, 2015, 01:13:32 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Flee · March 25, 2015, 01:14:40 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Isara · March 25, 2015, 01:18:12 PM

I didn't even check whether it was down, silly me. I'll look at it later, seems interesting.

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 25, 2015, 01:12:28 PM

Sites down, at the moment.

Verbatim · March 25, 2015, 01:21:50 PM

For me, feminism will always be, at its core, the same exact thing as egalitarianism, or the ideal that no person ought to be discriminated against solely for their gender, race, sexuality, etc. etc.

So, if you're for equal rights, but don't identify as a feminist, to me, that's like someone who doesn't believe in god choosing not to identify as an "atheist".

Fact is, they are atheists, regardless of how they personally choose to identify themselves.

You might be able to say that you're not a "third wave" feminist with a little bit more confidence, but let's not pigeonhole the entire philosophy with people who are concerned about the petty issues that are bitched about on Tumblr.

More Than Mortal · March 25, 2015, 01:28:41 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on March 25, 2015, 01:21:50 PM

For me, feminism will always be, at its core, the same exact thing as egalitarianism, or the ideal that no person ought to be discriminated against solely for their gender, race, sexuality, etc. etc.

Sure, but feminism is explicitly active. It's a position of advocacy, not mere neutrality. Feminism has won, it's goal has been accomplished in the Western world. It's defunct.

Isara · March 25, 2015, 01:45:37 PM

I skimmed through the source and I have to say that it's interesting. I think I agree with you for the most part, but it's also that many so-called feminists (especially online) raise their voices on stupid things when there may be problems with equality outside of the subjects that you touch with your OP.

challengerX · March 25, 2015, 01:47:10 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.