Why do progressives deny biology?

 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
There seems to be a great big fucking awful meme among progressives and social scientists--mostly sociologists--at the moment to partially or even completely deny the role of biology in the formation of things like gender identity, gendered behaviour and the general heritability of traits vs. social constructionism.

How come the Left and sociologists have engaged so vigorously in this biological denialism, and why the fuck is sociology as a field so politicised?


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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
Because equality trumps facts.


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It's odd, when I covered that in Sociology our teacher taught us Social and Biological approaches to building up who you are.

Maybe people are just picking and choosing to fit their agenda, I don't know.


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Maybe people are just picking and choosing to fit their agenda, I don't know.
Basically any time politics meets science.
Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 08:31:02 PM by Kupo


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Maybe people are just picking and choosing to fit their agenda, I don't know.
Basically any time science meets politics.
Apparently biological sciences have a really terrible time getting funding in Norway because of the generally-progressive political climate.


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Maybe people are just picking and choosing to fit their agenda, I don't know.
Basically any time science meets politics.
Apparently biological sciences have a really terrible time getting funding in Norway because of the generally-progressive political climate.
Ugh.


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Brace yourself:

http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/picture-yourself-as-a-stereotypical-male

Spoiler
Before you lose your goddamn mind, I want to point out that the studies mentioned in this link have been highly criticized in regards to their replicability -- as in, almost entirely refuted. But the previous article highlights a really severe problem with popular science in the masses' willingness to accept anything vaguely scientific at face value.

https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/tag/stereotype-threat-and-womens-math-performance/
Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 09:19:05 PM by HurtfulTurkey


 
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I've yet to see compelling evidence to suggest that gender identity has any type of biological ties whatsoever.

And that's because there isn't any, because... "gender" refers specifically to those characteristics that aren't biological. It's like trying to find water that isn't composed of H2O.
Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 09:18:50 PM by Verbatim


 
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What you should be ranting about is these people who think that sex--your biological sex--is... also a social construct.

These people exist.


 
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Fuck that.

MUST MAINTAIN STATUS QUO


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Brace yourself:

http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/picture-yourself-as-a-stereotypical-male

Spoiler
Before you lose your goddamn mind, I want to point out that the studies mentioned in this link have been highly criticized in regards to their replicability -- as in, almost entirely refuted. But the previous article highlights a really severe problem with popular science in the masses' willingness to accept anything vaguely scientific at face value.

https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/tag/stereotype-threat-and-womens-math-performance/

got a chuckle from me


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
I've yet to see compelling evidence to suggest that gender identity has any type of biological ties whatsoever.
You haven't looked hard enough then. We've observed gendered behaviour in humans just one day old.


 
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I don't know, maybe it's just to help rid the idea that people have to stick strictly to specified gender roles.
Not many people outside of ultra-conservative nuts are doing this, though. There are greater differences between men and women in freer, more egalitarian countries in both labour market outcomes and actual personality.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Brace yourself:

http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/picture-yourself-as-a-stereotypical-male

Spoiler
Before you lose your goddamn mind, I want to point out that the studies mentioned in this link have been highly criticized in regards to their replicability -- as in, almost entirely refuted. But the previous article highlights a really severe problem with popular science in the masses' willingness to accept anything vaguely scientific at face value.

https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/tag/stereotype-threat-and-womens-math-performance/

"Maybe it won’t surprise you to know that a girl’s math performance is empirically shown to decrease in proportion to the number of male test-takers around her, or that conscious reminders of gender differences will significantly decrease females’ math test scores."

Stopped there.


 
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You haven't looked hard enough then.
>neuroanatomical differences associated with gender identity.
>neuroanatomical
>anatomical

Sex, not gender.
Quote
We've observed gendered behaviour in humans just one day old.
>"Sex differences in human neonatal social perception"
>Sex

The word "gender" isn't even used once in the entire article.
Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 10:46:03 PM by Verbatim


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"Maybe it won’t surprise you to know that a girl’s math performance is empirically shown to decrease in proportion to the number of male test-takers around her, or that conscious reminders of gender differences will significantly decrease females’ math test scores."

Stopped there.

Hang on a moment.

I'm taking a psychology course and part of the current material involves stereotype threat. My professor used an example similar to the above to explain it. Is the whole thing wrong? Should I storm out of the classroom in a rage over being taught bullshit?


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
>neuroanatomical differences associated with gender identity.
>neuroanatomical
>anatomical
Come on, Verb, you know that's ridiculously fucking reductionist.

To actually quote the study in context: "neuroanatomical differences associated with gender identity."

This means that gender identity is associated with biological variations in the nervous system. Defining it as sex simply because it includes biology is ridiculous; sex is about your genitalia/chromosomal make-up, gender is about personal perception. Nothing about the definition of gender precludes biological explanations for such phenomena, and it's ridiculous to pre-suppose that it does.


Quote
The word "gender" isn't even used once in the entire article.
Fortunately for the article, CTRL+F doesn't capture the whole picture; it is clearly talking about gendered behaviour (bearing in mind the study was written in 2000, so I'm not at all surprised they don't use the term gender):

Quote
The present study aimed to ascertain whether the sexual dimorphism is a result of biological or socio-cultural differences between the two sexes. 102 human neonates, who by definition have not yet been influenced by social and cultural factors, were tested to see if there was a difference in looking time at a face (social object) and a mobile (physical-mechanical object). Results showed that the male infants showed a stronger interest in the physical-mechanical mobile while the female infants showed a stronger interest in the face. The results of this research clearly demonstrate that sex differences are in part biological in origin

If the study were solely about sex as we define it today, the underlined passages would make literally no sense, and I have seen interviews of Simon Baron-Cohen as recent as 2010 where he explicitly states the findings of the study are to do with gendered behaviour. It's pretty clear, in context, that this is what "sexual dimorphism" refers to.


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You know I can't really say that I even care enough to bother looking into the research and forming an opinion on this.
it's just a semantic argument.
no one actually believes they're mutually exclusive.


 
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Nothing about the definition of gender precludes biological explanations for such phenomena, and it's ridiculous to pre-suppose that it does.
I guess? I'm willing to concede this for the moment. For the sake of argument.

Quote
(bearing in mind the study was written in 2000, so I'm not at all surprised they don't use the term gender):
Neither am I. I didn't notice that at first, and that kinda makes me feel even less inclined to lend the article any credence, but... whatever.

Quote
102 human neonates, who by definition have not yet been influenced by social and cultural factors, were tested to see if there was a difference in looking time at a face (social object) and a mobile (physical-mechanical object). Results showed that the male infants showed a stronger interest in the physical-mechanical mobile while the female infants showed a stronger interest in the face. The results of this research clearly demonstrate that sex differences are in part biological in origin
...You mean it couldn't have been a coincidence? 102 human neonates isn't a whole lot. If I flip a perfect coin 100 times, and just happen to get heads 70 times, does that mean there's a 70% chance in getting heads? Obviously not. You need a much bigger sample size and a better, more objective test.

This study reeks of confirmation bias. A baby reacting to one stimulus MORE than another stimulus? Why is that supposed to mean anything?
Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 12:06:49 AM by Verbatim


 
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As for the other article, I apparently need an account to access the pdf, which... fuck that.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
does that mean there's a 70% chance in getting heads?
Irrelevant; the study has literally nothing to do with probability. Considering how babies tend to respond to visual stimulus, seeing it stare at something it's interested in is exactly the kind of response we'd expect. And it's not the kind of study that demands a representative sample size; we're not gather stats on the subset of a population here, all we're interested in is duplicability, which the researchers clearly accomplished.

Given how neonatal response to stimulus is quite a lot more complex than flipping a coin, and has a lot less to do with random chance, it's not an apt comparison.

The fact that gendered behaviour has biological roots shouldn't even be controversial; almost everybody who can think properly realises the importance of evolution as a biological process and to just assume that the influence of evolution stops at phenotypical traits is just unsupported. Biology is the reason men are innately more violent; it's the reason women tend to go into work in jobs which are more "people-oriented"; it's the reason why we see more auto-segregation in more equal countries and it's the reason we see greater personality differences in more equal countries.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Relevant excerpt:

Quote
A x2 test demonstrated that there was a significant association between sex and stimulus preference (x2 5 8.3, df. 5 2, p 5 0.016). An analysis of adjusted residuals demonstrated that the significant result is due to more of the male babies, and fewer of the female babies, having a preference for the mobile than would be predicted. In other words, male babies tend to prefer the mobile, whereas female babies either have no preference or prefer the real face. This result is supported by considering the mean percentage looking times for male and female babies (see Table 2). A repeated measures ANOVA, comparing percentage looking times for males and females for the face and mobile, found that neither the main effect of sex [F(1, 100) 5 1.03, p . 0.3] or of stimulus type [F(1, 100) 5 0.10, p . 0.7] were significant. There was, however, a significant sex x stimulus type interaction [F(1, 100) 5 5.28, p 5 0.02]. The interaction was investigated using t tests which demonstrated that males looked significantly longer at the mobile than females did (t 5 2.3, df. 5 100, p 5 0.02) and also that females looked longer at the real face than at the mobile (t 5 2.4, df. 5 100, p 5 0.02). The results from the ANOVA were replicated when the age and weight of the baby, duration of trial, and the length of gestation were entered as covariates.


 
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Irrelevant; the study has literally nothing to do with probability.
I'm not talking about probabilities--I'm talking about coincidences.

The fact that more baby girls (out of a mere 50) paid more attention to a face than they did a mobile doesn't mean anything. It's a shitty outdated study; never use it again.

Quote
Biology is the reason men are innately more violent; it's the reason women tend to go into work in jobs which are more "people-oriented"; it's the reason why we see more auto-segregation in more equal countries and it's the reason we see greater personality differences in more equal countries.
Prove it. I don't accept any of this.
Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 12:28:26 AM by Verbatim


 
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Relevant excerpt:
You're still dealing with a sample size far too small to take seriously.

I need, like, ten thousand babies. Even that's small.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Prove it. I don't accept any of this.
Do I really need to provide you with a source that men are more innately violent than women? The fact that men are universally more violent than women--from Saudi Arabia to Norway--really ought to be evidence enough that culture just cannot be the deciding factor.

But, okay:

Evolutionary explanation for male violence.

Gendered behaviour is primarily biological (sociosexuality) [1].

Gendered behaviour is primarily biological (general) [2].

High degrees of auto-segregation in egalitarian countries.

Another paper from the APA on innate gender differences.

The idea of "biological gender" is controversial everywhere outside of biology and psychology. . . and I know who we ought to be listening to when it comes to this (it isn't the sociologists).
Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 01:07:27 AM by Executioner Sigma


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
No idea is this is useful or not towards the idea of a non-binary concept of gender but I saw this posted recently.
Quote
Q: Isn't this all in your head? There can't be any science behind this.

A: Actually, there is. One leading theory (supported by research) about female-to-male transgender individuals is that the hormone wash that occurs during the first trimester of pregnancy is misfired in FtMs, altering the brain chemistry of the fetus to essentially create a male-wired mind in a female-wired body.1 There are other theories and studies out there concerning the etiology of transsexuality,2 and studies have shown that the transgendered brain is more chemically similar to the identified sex than the biological sex.3,4

1 Dr. J.-N. Zhou. β€œA Sex Difference In The Human Brain And Its Relation To Transsexuality." 1995.
2 http://www.avitale.com/etiologicalreview.htm
3 http://mindhacks.com/2009/04/05/imaging-the-transgendered-brain/
4 http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/sex/TRANSGENDER.pdf
Not entirely sure how it relates to non-binary gender identity (is transgender a form of non-binary, 'cause idk), but it is evidence for a biological basis of gendered behaviour.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
The traditional idea of transgender is binary, meaning you either go one way or the other. You're either FTM or MTF. Non-binary transgender would be anything in between.
Isn't gender essentially just a sliding scale of masculinity-femininity anyway? Seems like the only reason we would speak of a binary gender set would be convenience, rather than any strict adherence to it.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
I finally just felt like I was naturally at peace with myself and it was easier to just be myself without constantly being self conscious. It cured the depression I had for 9 years and I just feel comfortable in my own skin.
I'm glad you managed to transcend your situation. . .







No, in all serious that's great. It's hard enough to feel as if you lack a sense of identity, let alone having depression alongside it. I'm happy for you.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
But essentially yeah there's people just all over the place with how they handle gender and I don't entirely know what to make of it.
It's become such a clusterfuck of a concept with all the political clashes (especially LGBTQ activists who assume being such an activist gives them a keen insight into the nature of gender) and the complete lack of consideration paid to the biologists and psychologists by either side of the divide. Most people probably don't even know what they're talking about when they pontificate on the issue.


 
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If you could again highlight relevant passages, that would be super. I read the first two articles and found that the first one helped me more than it helped you, and likewise with the second article. Social gravity leads to the divvying up of the sexes into genders. You can blame biology in the same way that I can blame Karl Benz for the last car accident I was in, but that doesn't seem logical to me.

You call it "reductionist"; I call it knowing what the fuck gender means. And it has fuck all to do with biology.
Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 11:15:04 AM by Verbatim