Quote from: BerzerkCommando on July 04, 2015, 10:56:46 AM

God bless our soldiers for murdering all those Indians and kicking them off their land..

A couple of issues:

I) Disease was the primary killer.
II) Natives were murdering each other long before the Europeans got there.
III) The Natives had no concept of private property.

If you want to paint the American military as a bunch of murderers, at least put some fucking effort in.

On points two and three.

2. Every corner of the planet has had people murdering each other. Even arguably more peaceful cultures have had their own little bloodbaths. Nobody ever was perfect, and, we're a long shot from it, still.

3. Do you need a concept of private property? No. And, most importantly, true private property does not exist and it never will. However, what does exist, is the lengths you'll go to, to defend your little imaginary line in the sand.

3. Do you need a concept of private property? No. And, most importantly, true private property does not exist and it never will. However, what does exist, is the lengths you'll go to, to defend your little imaginary line in the sand.

The point was supposed to highlight that it's not clear to what extent America was actually the "property" of the natives.

Fuck yeah I'm proud, this country is the forefront of human progression.

Quote from: Sandtrap on July 04, 2015, 01:19:41 PM

Well, there's something else to consider here. Call it a hypothetical.

What if you gave the natives actual time? Progress doesn't happen overnight. It takes time, based on the culture, the environmental factors, and of course, key individuals.

Well seeing how fucking primitive and stupid they were compared to the colonists, I really don't see them accomplishing what modern Americans have.

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Also.

Please don't play the "caring about the advancement of the species" card because it's redundant and a total load of tripe. Nobody at their core gives a shit about the species as a whole. Nobody even cares about the "survival" of the species on a consciously driving level.

Also.

Please don't act like you know me or anybody else, because you don't. I want to see humanity leave this planet in my lifetime. I want to see cures for terrible diseases. I want to see war and poverty and hunger end. I care about our species.

If you don't, that's fine. Just don't project your feeling onto me or everybody else and act like its something universal because YOU feel that way.

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Mainly because it's not possible to keep track of, or even care about 7 billion people.

I don't need to personally know every human being out there to care about our species as a collective.

I'm not saying I cry myself to sleep every night if I see that 50 people died in a fire on the news. It means I want to see us advance as a species and accomplish things we can't even imagine.

To sum up my point nice and short for you.

Improving humanity as a whole never has and never will be on anybody's mind. The advancement of our species has come solely based off of key people, and their own drive and self interest. It's a side effect.

As such, you can never really say that you truly do care. You're just interested. But you're not invested.

winning the lottery and becoming set for life doesn't make playing the lottery a good idea

I think the chances of successfully colonising North and Central America were higher than winning the lottery. . .

Quote from: Verbatim on July 04, 2015, 01:53:56 PM

winning the lottery and becoming set for life doesn't make playing the lottery a good idea

I think the chances of successfully colonising North and Central America were higher than winning the lottery. . .

there is no such thing as chance :^)

the focal point is the ought to do, though
not the probability of success

even if it was guaranteed to be successful, i could still make the ethical argument that it would be wrong

like, easily

Quote from: challengerX on July 04, 2015, 01:25:56 PM

I don't need to personally know every human being out there to care about our species as a collective.

I'm not saying I cry myself to sleep every night if I see that 50 people died in a fire on the news. It means I want to see us advance as a species and accomplish things we can't even imagine.

And this doesn't even make any sense. It's contradictory, completely.

If you don't don't know everybody personally, then how the fuck can you say that you want to see the collective advance? Or, for example, look at people you dislike. Or hate. You disliking or hating people is counter productive to to that sum goal of the collective.

And, if you aren't even aware of everybody, then you have no idea what the collective sum of humanity is.

So no. You're absolutely wrong. You don't actually, truly care with a burning desire, about the sum of what happens to us as a species because you're only truly capable of seeing people and things in your personal sphere of perception and interest.

So no. You're wrong. You don't care.

You're just interested.

With your own eyes, in your own lifetime, you want to see things happen that were never thought possible. But that is only your self interest.

Some country could get wiped off the map before that point. A genocide could occur that wipes out an entire group of people. And it wouldn't really matter to you. So, as such. Humanity getting any good benifits and improvement is just a side effect of your own self interest.

You don't really care about the sum, whole total, Challenger. You're just interested in what you'd like to see is all.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing either. But the whole "I care about humanity" card really is a load of total bullshit. You don't even have the capacity for it and as such calling a simple fondness or quaint daydream that you want to see with your own eyes a form of true caring for everybody else is, frankly,

absolute bullshit.

Oh, just shut up already. You don't need to know everyone personally to care about the advance of the species as a whole. Hm, notice the way that's worded? "AS A WHOLE"? That means the homogenous group, all the cogs, gears, wires, everything as one, NOT THE INDIVIDUAL PARTS. You should really stop trying to assert your negative outlooks on others - there are people who genuinely care and want the human race to succeed and advance, and to tell them "LOL NO YOU DON'T LOL NOBODY DOES" is both disrespectful, arrogant, and infuriating. You're trying to tell people they feel differently than they do, as if you have it all figured out. That's quite frankly the only fucking bullshit going on here.

Don't go telling Challenger what he feels. I'm pretty fucking sure he knows how he feels. I personally agree with him, I'd love to see the human race advance in amazing ways - travel to the stars, end horrible diseases, grow out of wars and conflict, and continue on the journey for knowledge about our universe and existence. And don't you even fucking DARE tell me that I don't care, because fuck you, I know how I feel about it. And no, it doesn't have to happen in my lifetime, but seeing the movement of the pieces in my lifetime is an experience in itself.

Quote from: Verbatim on July 04, 2015, 02:03:10 PM

i could still make the ethical argument that it would be wrong

like, easily

You'd have to demonstrate that it was a net negative to human well-being then, which seems like rather a tall order.

Not when you consider that we're better never to have been. A premise I know you don't accept, but it doesn't matter. Over 500 million people have had life imposed upon them in America--of which less than, say, a thousand amounted to anything in their lives.

Whether it ended up truly being a net gain is irrelevant anyway, because you can't justify starting new generations in the first place, just like playing the lottery is still a stupid thing to do, even if someone becomes a millionaire on their first attempt.

I should be proud, but I'm not sure exactly why I should be. America is a cesspool of garbage bigotry. I guess I'm grateful for having a higher standard of living... And yet not because the cost of living is too damn high.

Quote from: Sandtrap on July 04, 2015, 02:24:49 PM

And this doesn't even make any sense. It's contradictory, completely.

Except it isn't. I don't care so much about the individual as the collective, the species.

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If you don't don't know everybody personally, then how the fuck can you say that you want to see the collective advance?

Because they're two different things.

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Or, for example, look at people you dislike. Or hate. You disliking or hating people is counter productive to to that sum goal of the collective.

Well that would matter if I cared about every individual. I don't. I could hear about a million people dying on the news, it wouldn't emotionally affect me. I don't know these people.

I'd consider it a huge loss to humanity though.

A man could come up to me and tell me he's going to die from cancer in a week. That would affect me more, because if actually see the person up close and feel his pain.

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And, if you aren't even aware of everybody, then you have no idea what the collective sum of humanity is.

This is where your stupidity comes in.

The individual isn't the collective.

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So no. You're absolutely wrong. You don't actually, truly care with a burning desire, about the sum of what happens to us as a species because you're only truly capable of seeing people and things in your personal sphere of perception and interest.

Not really.

I want to see because I'd like to see it. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't want humanity to progress after my death.

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So no. You're wrong. You don't care.

You're just interested.

Uh no,  I care.

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With your own eyes, in your own lifetime, you want to see things happen that were never thought possible. But that is only your self interest.

No, I really want humanity to make it. Me experiencing it is a bonus.

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Some country could get wiped off the map before that point. A genocide could occur that wipes out an entire group of people. And it wouldn't really matter to you.

I'd consider it a huge loss to humanity. Depending on which country, I may or may not be emotionally affected.

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So, as such. Humanity getting any good benifits and improvement is just a side effect of your own self interest.

benefits*

No, it isn't. Because I care. So do a lot of other people.

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You don't really care about the sum, whole total, Challenger. You're just interested in what you'd like to see is all.

Like I said, I'd like to see it.

But at the end of the day the important thing is that we progress. It doesn't really matter if I see it. I'm an individual. The collective is infinitely more important.

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I'm not saying it's a bad thing either. But the whole "I care about humanity" card really is a load of total bullshit. You don't even have the capacity for it and as such calling a simple fondness or quaint daydream that you want to see with your own eyes a form of true caring for everybody else is, frankly,

absolute bullshit.

Except I and many others actually care.

Maybe you you should keep your negativity to yourself instead of projecting it onto everybody else.

I never said that people didn't care. I just stated, that it can't really be called true care. You want the collective sum to be well off but you don't even know what the true collective sum of humanity is. Nobody does. Nobody can even comprehend that amount of people.

And, by the way, the collective sum is composed of individuals. The two go hand in hand synonamously. The collective sum, of my town, is 800 hundred people. The collective sum of people in my province, is 1 million. The entire collective sum of people on our planet is roughly 7 billion individuals. Which leads me to my point here.

It's self interest that drives anybody, and everybody. It's things inside of our sphere of perceptiona and influence, that we truly care about. The person who invents something new? They wanted to. They wanted to satisfy their curiousity. How about somebody doing something because they cared about someone? Like a doctor who invents a new procedure or medicine?

They likely did it because they cared about somebody they knew. An experience inside their personal sphere.

That's my point. You can say that you care all you want, but you don't. Not to what could truly be defined as true care.  You said it yourself.

Let's say a big chunk of the human population gets wiped off the map. You'd consider it a loss to humanity.

But, really, that's all. You wouldn't cry. You wouldn't weep. You wouldn't really do anything about. You might think about it for a while, but, at the end of the day, nothing will come of it.

For example. Take the recent quakes in nepal. You're looking at a death toll of over 10,000 people minimum. The entire place is flattened over like a pile of matchsticks.

You see the pictures and the devestation, and of course, you say that it's horrible. But that's it. It's caring, obviously. Because you say wow that's horrible.

But I'm not really sure you can call that real care. It's just like a little ping on the radar and then it dissappears. Real, true care has emotional investment. And, emotional investment drives people into action to do what they do.

Anyway. This conversation is more about two points of view on personal things instead of a particular statment being made.

When Europe showed up on North America and shit hit the fan with the natives, Europeans weren't thinking of "the progressment of humanity." That's a load of horseshit. They were colonizing more territory and when the natives didn't get along with them they dropped the hammer on them big time.

There was no general consensus among everybody that this was some illuminating path to the future and that the entire human population of the planet would benefit from it. It was a land grab that played to the self interest of the people who wanted that land as theirs and obviously, had a pretty fucking low opinion of the natives.

Anywho. I ain't gonna press things here. It's not like I'm cheering for some asshat to press the button on the nukes or anything. I want to see new fantastic helpful stuff in the future too. I'd like to see beneficial things made and progress. But, personally, to myself, saying that I really well and truly do care about the entire sum population just seems like a false statement. A false statement to be made by anybody. I certainly care about the people I know in my personal circle of things. Outside of that, everything else just seems, well, a little shaky. Too much of a big grey area.