Mark Langedijk - Netherlands Man chooses Euthanasia for Alcoholism

 
 
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/man-holland-netherlands-dutch-euthanised-alcohol-addiction-alcoholic-netherlands-a7446256.html

Quote
A man in the Netherlands has been allowed to die because he could no longer carry on living as an alcoholic.

Mark Langedijk chose the day of his death and was telling jokes, drinking beer and eating ham sandwiches with his family hours before he passed away.

He was killed by lethal injection at his parents’ home on 14 July, according to an account of the ordeal written by his brother and published in the magazine Linda.

The Netherlands introduced a euthanasia law 16 years ago, which is available to people in “unbearable suffering” with no prospect of improvement.

Marcel Langedijk wrote his brother had a “happy childhood” and was loved by both his parents, and only found out he had an addiction eight years ago.

“I was particularly angry at Mark,” he said. “At first we did what most people do; help. My parents especially have done everything humanly possible to save Mark.”

His parents continued to believe in a “happy ending” despite eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab. 

Eventually, Mr Langedijk told his family he wanted to die, but the family originally took the news with “a grain of salt”.

But his brother had no second thoughts. His application for euthanasia was approved by a doctor from the Support and Consultation on Euthanasia in the Netherlands.

On the day of his death, he “laughed, drank, smoked, ate ham and cheese sandwiches and soup with meatballs” until his doctor arrived at his parents’ home at 3.15pm.

His doctor explained the procedure, before telling Mr Landedijk to get into bed and to stay calm.

At this point, they all “started crying, my parents, everyone actually, even Mark”.

“We cried, told each other that we loved each other, that it would be all right, that we would care for each other, that we would see each other again, we held each other,” he said. “If it was not so terrible, it would have been nice.

“Mark's eyes turned away, he sighed deeply. His last. Dr Marijke injected the third syringe. His face changed, lost color. My little brother was dead.”

More than 5,500 people ended their life using Holland’s euthanasia laws last year. One of those who died was a sex abuse victim who suffered severe anorexia, chronic depression and hallucinations.

Fiona Bruce, a Conservative MP, told the Daily Mail news of Mr Landedijk's death was "deeply concerning and yet another reason why assisted suicide and euthanasia must never be introduced into the UK".

“What someone suffering from alcoholism needs is support and treatment to get better from their addiction – which can be provided – not to be euthanised," she added.

“It is once again a troubling sign of how legalised euthanasia undermines in other countries the treatment and help the most vulnerable should receive.”

Responding to Mrs Bruce, Marcel Langedijk told the Independent: "You can close your eyes to it and keep telling yourself everyone is curable but the fact remains, not everyone is.

"My brother suffered from depression and anxiety and tried to 'cure' it with alcohol. He's from a normal family, he did not want this to happen. He did not take an easy way out. Just a humane one.

"If that's troubling for Mrs Bruce that's a pity. I am just glad my brother did not have to jump in front of a train or live a few more years in agony before dying of his abuse.

"Alcoholism and depression are illnesses, just like cancer. People who suffer from it need a humane way out.

"It's not like we go around killing people in Holland. It took my brother a year and a half and many struggles to get it done."

What do you make of this?

I can kind of sympathise with the argument that when a person has been unable to be treated for a significant period of time for something like this, the option shouldn't be denied to them.

The thing his brother said stood out
Quote
I am just glad my brother did not have to jump in front of a train or live a few more years in agony before dying of his abuse.

Is it more humane to allow someone to die properly, rather than trying to treat them until a bloody end?
Or is it wrong to give up on trying to help someone to get better?

Then you also have fairly unethical treatment options, with a pretty good rate of success, as performed by certain russian doctors. I can't remember his name but the procedure is the injection of an implant that causes uncontrollable nausea and vomiting when there is alcohol in the blood (I *think* it's derived from rubber tree extract). So you essentially force a person to stop drinking through classical conditioning.

It's not a mainstream treatment because of the risk of strokes, cardiac arrest and a couple of other undesirable possibilities - but for last resort alcoholic patients, should something like that be attempted before euthanasia is available?


 
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The way they word it makes it sound like pretty much everything had been tried.


 
 
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I think everything should be tried before giving up. But in other cases, such as rape victims or worse, let them go out peacefully.
Hmm, I'm a bit more torn on that one.

But I guess it comes down to a similar scenario, if someone with PTSD and related issues is beyond help then forcing them to live is pretty cruel.

If no meds, shrink, doctor or alternate therapy has been able to help then yeah, it's not ideal for it to continue. Equally we don't have a great understanding of how to treat things like that yet, there are of course some very successful therapies out there but it's hardly like antibiotics->infection sort of treatment. It might be jumping the gun on it a little.


 
 
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The way they word it makes it sound like pretty much everything had been tried.
I think that's usually the case, from what flee said about something similar with belgian euthanasia, the ethics panel have to be convinced that nothing more can be done and that the person is of a sound enough mind to make that choice.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
Nothing wrong with this whatsoever. Even if "everything else" wasn't tried.

No matter what stage of your life you're in, no matter the reason, every adult has the right to die.

Even if you're mentally impaired. You don't get your rights stripped away because you're not sane.
Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 12:50:44 PM by SecondClass


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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
Even if you're mentally impaired. You don't get your rights stripped away because you're not sane.
A mentally ill person wouldn't have the proper capacity to exercise these "rights" you keep jerking off over.

Think, before you speak.


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
I mean... After 21 trips to a rehab clinic...

You've really got to start wondering if someone's ever gonna get clean after that.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
Even if you're mentally impaired. You don't get your rights stripped away because you're not sane.
A mentally ill person wouldn't have the proper capacity to exercise these "rights" you keep jerking off over.

Think, before you speak.
Yes, they would. Your human rights are inalienable. If you're concerned about your possibly future mentally ill self exercising a right you don't want to, make this clear in a note.

Otherwise, you can't strip away that right because of a mental condition. What if you're in unimaginable emotional pain constantly, but you're denied euthanasia because you have a screw loose? NO ONE has an obligation to live, especially people who might have a permanent mental condition.
Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 01:01:55 PM by SecondClass


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
Even if you're mentally impaired. You don't get your rights stripped away because you're not sane.
A mentally ill person wouldn't have the proper capacity to exercise these "rights" you keep jerking off over.

Think, before you speak.
Forcing people to become wards of the state violates the NAP


 
 
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Even if you're mentally impaired. You don't get your rights stripped away because you're not sane.
A mentally ill person wouldn't have the proper capacity to exercise these "rights" you keep jerking off over.

Think, before you speak.
Yes, they would. Your human rights are inalienable. If you're concerned about your possibly future mentally ill self exercising a right you don't want to, make this clear in a note.

Otherwise, you can't strip away that right because of a mental condition. What if you're in unimaginable emotional pain constantly, but you're denied euthanasia because you have a screw loose? NO ONE has an obligation to live, especially people who might have a permanent mental condition.
I'd just like to point out that the issue is more the ability to make an informed decision about their treatment rather than whether they are completely mentally sound.

Someone who wishes to die is quite likely going to be depressed, making sure that they don't wish to die purely because depression is altering their mental state (I.e clinical depression) is the safeguard here.

Take the lady referred to in the article for example
Quote
One of those who died was a sex abuse victim who suffered severe anorexia, chronic depression and hallucinations.
You could easily go 'not fit to make the judgement' from making your own snap judgement based on seeing 'chronic depression and hallucinations' as evidence of an unsound mind. But clearly the committee thought they were sound enough to consent to it/request it.

So it's not really a mental illness = unable to make decisions thing, nor is it fine to allow anyone with a condition to opt into euthanasia without checking that they are sound of mind.



 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
The point is that not being of sound mind doesn't bar you from choosing to not live. What if someone has a permanent mental condition? Are they destined to live in their hell forever until they decide to jump in front of a car?

Same with depression. It's a terrible illness, but you're not obligated to fight it  It's YOUR life, and you have every right to opt out.


 
 
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The point is that not being of sound mind doesn't bar you from choosing to not live. What if someone has a permanent mental condition? Are they destined to live in their hell forever until they decide to jump in front of a car?

Same with depression. It's a terrible illness, but you're not obligated to fight it  It's YOUR life, and you have every right to opt out.
If there is no way to cure it, or to improve QoL to the point where life is enjoyable/worth living then it should be an option.

Of course you aren't obligated to fight it, just as you aren't obligated to fight cancer. The only problem with it in this context is that it alters your state of mind* to a point where rational thought is distorted - making it hard for someone to make an informed choice about opting out when all they can 'see' is the same miserable grey instead of the 'real' colours on display. It's a delusional disorder** and so you have to be sure that the person who has given up is making that in a sound judgement rather than through delusion.

*Clinical Depression, not mild
**Same as above

The reason intervention is a thing with it, instead of just saying 'do a flip' is because it's an illness that can in most cases be overcome with the proper treatment.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
I guess that makes sense. I just don't like the concept where we get to choose who gets to exercise their rights and who doesn't.

I can't imagine being someone who has legitimately chosen to die and have some out of touch doctor say "No, you're not allowed."


 
 
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I guess that makes sense. I just don't like the concept where we get to choose who gets to exercise their rights and who doesn't.

I can't imagine being someone who has legitimately chosen to die and have some out of touch doctor say "No, you're not allowed."
It's not an easy thing to reconcile with ideas like freedom/liberty and personal choice but it's an important distinction to make (in my mind at least).

You would stop a toddler from drinking carbolic acid because it isn't capable of thinking it through properly, to me it's no different than intervening in a suicide attempt because chances are their mind is not working in a healthy way. Then if it turns out that it's the 'right' choice, as opposed to one spurred on by alcohol and a downward spiral in mood - the offer of a clean and painless death shouldn't be denied.

I think that's partly why these cases go before panels, rather than a single doctor. It's a lot harder to make mistakes or have personal biases take over when the process is laid out and takes input from multiple professionals.


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We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the shitlord scripture the Bhagavad Reeeeeeeta; Kek is trying to persuade the prince that he should save his people, and to impress him takes on his frog-headed form, and says, "Now I am become meme, the destroyer of cucks." I suppose we all thought that, one way or another.
For this and abortion I've been of the opinion that it should be allowed under specific circumstances, but not promoted to the whole public as something normal, it's a final solution to a problem with no other easy answer, and letting it become widespread just breaks people's judgement of value.


 
 
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For this and abortion I've been of the opinion that it should be allowed under specific circumstances, but not promoted to the whole public as something normal, it's a final solution to a problem with no other easy answer, and letting it become widespread just breaks people's judgement of value.
Well naturally it's not something to promote, but I don't think it's going to make people value life any less if it becomes a 'normal' occurrence. Normal as in, not newsworthy, rather than frequent in day to day life.


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We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the shitlord scripture the Bhagavad Reeeeeeeta; Kek is trying to persuade the prince that he should save his people, and to impress him takes on his frog-headed form, and says, "Now I am become meme, the destroyer of cucks." I suppose we all thought that, one way or another.
For this and abortion I've been of the opinion that it should be allowed under specific circumstances, but not promoted to the whole public as something normal, it's a final solution to a problem with no other easy answer, and letting it become widespread just breaks people's judgement of value.
Well naturally it's not something to promote, but I don't think it's going to make people value life any less if it becomes a 'normal' occurrence. Normal as in, not newsworthy, rather than frequent in day to day life.
Yes and no, I'm less concerned about how much people value life in the abstract given that people are perfectly fine with say, starting a war that will kill millions of people, in order to take revenge for little children being barrel bombed...

But what I am concerned about is when people start building their life decisions around "It's okay to do this otherwise life changing event, because I can just get a doctor to solve it". In any other society in history, a woman deciding to have unprotected sex with multiple men just for the fun of it, would be considered cause to disown her. But now it's just "yeah whatever, get an abortion and an STD check and you'll be sweet famalm".

Same deal applies to euthanasia, if people start thinking "well the worst that happens is that I can end all the pain peacefully, then I guess there's isn't a problem with me doing this otherwise dangerous thing". It messes up people's sense of danger and value of a good life. Moreover, what about the people who want to stay far away from these kinds of things? How are you to raise a child to believe in trying your hardest until the very end, when everyone around them will be telling them they can just legally kill themselves? It's very easy to create a culture of giving up and death, just as we live in a (((culture of promiscuity.)))


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Fair to say that I'm divided on the subject. Shorthand explanation is euthanasia is up on the table for specific cases. I'm not of the ability to judge or define those conditions however. Every person is different, and therefore a complex formula of reasons for being what they are.

I am under the impression however, that there is only so much that help given to someone can do. A person has to want that help, and not only that, but seriously want to alter themselves if they expect positive changes. If they don't, then all the help given in the world will not fix them or make even a dent.

Euthinasia should be considered carefully. I think, especially so in the corners of the world that border on the north. There's a phenomenon in the north all across the world that seems to be more of a common occurence than down in more hospitable areas.

Cluster suicides ring any bells psyche? The communities in the north can be fragile. I'd hate to imagine cluster euthenasia becoming a thing if it wasn't implemented without discretion.




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There's a lot to discuss on this subject too. There's cultural implications, just like Caddy brought up.

It might be somewhat offtopic, but I suppose there may be some merit in it. I notice a disparity in generations today. Even among my own, and in younger people. I'm gonna sound like an old fuck here, and I understand why. The environment I've lived in, more or less instills a redneck macho-esque line of thinking to part of my thoughts.

Growing up, I learned that I have to tough things out. That there's no dodging the responsabilites that come with being who and what I am. And when I look at today's growing culture trends elsewhere, I see less and less of these values that I carry in myself.

And I see some of the issues that it's created in modern youth and has spilled all the way up into politics even. The redneck part of my thoughts would label it as encouraging weakness. But, I can see the other side of the fence. Looking back at the older generations, they were inflexable and too rigid in their values. They got shit done and didn't so much as flinch to hardship. But it was that rigid, solidness to them that also lead to downsides.

It's an extremely fine line to walk. Right now, I'd wager a fair chunk of society is too soft. And the further you lean in that direction the more problems it's going to cause. How euthenasia is implemented in society is a heavy factor to consider.


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It looks like these people would have committed suicide in any case. I'd like to see data on per capita suicides before this was enacted versus suicides plus assisted euthanasias after.


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Good to have a safe and legal choice (with assumed safeguards to prevent abuse or impulsive suicides, i.e. disabled being coerced by overburdened family members or "just broke up with my gf depressed").

That woman's stance on euthanasia being introduced into the UK seems pretty illogical. I'd argue the grief suffered from a dysfunctional family member choosing to commit suicide in the most humane way possible is better than the grief and potential guilt ("Could I have driven them away from help and into the arms of death?") suffered from said family member deciding to play chicken with a lorry instead because their needs couldn't be facilitated.

Heck, you could even schedule your death so that you can spend time with your family or to console and prepare them beforehand rather than suddenly just disappearing, only to be discovered to be a train jumper.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
In any other society in history, a woman deciding to have unprotected sex with multiple men just for the fun of it, would be considered cause to disown her.
Yeah, and that's fucked up and evil. There's nothing wrong with having a lot of sex, at all.

God, I hate obsessive 1950s edgelords like you.