I simply am unmoved by the conditions of the food I eat before it becomes my food.

Point being that's the immoral part. I don't particularly blame you, or anybody, or myself. It's hard to relate to the suffering of animals when we're not fully considerate of it. Personally, I don't feel I can abide it.

But, y'know, whatever. I have no intention of being evangelical about it; it just seems that whatever way you look at it, the current utilisation of animals is morally sub-optimal. But if you don't care, I can't see myself changing your mind.

Quote from: Mad Max on July 10, 2015, 12:08:38 PM

I simply am unmoved by the conditions of the food I eat before it becomes my food.

Point being that's the immoral part. I don't particularly blame you, or anybody, or myself. It's hard to relate to the suffering of animals when we're not fully considerate of it. Personally, I don't feel I can abide it.

But, y'know, whatever. I have no intention of being evangelical about it; it just seems that whatever way you look at it, the current utilisation of animals is morally sub-optimal. But if you don't care, I can't see myself changing your mind.

I think my position is what it is for two reasons:

1) "out of sight, out of mind" rings very true for me in this scenario. I have no idea what it's like on a farm, much less a one that is basically a food factory.

2) these sub-optimal conditions are a result of our best friends - Supply & Demand. A company like Tyson couldn't sustain their business if they switched to free-range, grass-fed, whateverwhatever chicken. The simple fact of how much space they would need and the cost of food compared to their current process is enough of a deterrent, financially.

2) these sub-optimal conditions are a result of our best friends - Supply & Demand. A company like Tyson couldn't sustain their business if they switched to free-range, grass-fed, whateverwhatever chicken. The simple fact of how much space they would need and the cost of food compared to their current process is enough of a deterrent, financially.

As an econ student, I have to point out that supply and demand are by no means infallible, no matter how much I defend them on principle.

Negative externalities like pollution or the suffering of animals should be taxed/regulated out of existence. I'm sure we all agree that the Chinese/Japanese demand for whale fin, which leads to the killing of such awesome and intelligent creatures, is thoroughly immoral.

That's just because you've never had a whale burger.

Quote from: Pendulate on July 10, 2015, 04:08:53 AM

Anything to say about Vitamin D, calcium, omega-3, iron and zinc?

Are there any foods which will meet your daily requirements? Or is it best to just take supplements?

I supplement vitamin D in big doses just because of the health benefits.  I haven't been sick for almost 2 years (was sick yearly, sometimes twice a year).  If you take a lot of D or calcium you need to take vitamin K2 as well to prevent calcification of the arteries and to better direct calcium to your bones.  The benefits of omega 3's come at higher doses than what most people get, like at 5-7g while most omega supplements are only a couple hundred milligrams.

Does anyone know if the animals in the EU are off any better than those in the US?

Nope; they all die, too.

:^)

Anything to say about Vitamin D, calcium, omega-3, iron and zinc?

Are there any foods which will meet your daily requirements? Or is it best to just take supplements?

Firstly bear in mind that deficiencies in these nutrients aren't just vegan problems, and a lot of omnivores are advised to supplement as well. Also, these are guidelines for optimal health; it's not a case of taking a bunch of supplements just to be equally healthy as the average omnivore who doesn't care. So don't feel that you have to meet every recommendation to the letter.

Vitamin D

Bit of a tricky one. It's really only found in fish and eggs, and you'd need to eat a lot of them to meet the RDI, so omnivores are advised to supplement it as well. Vitamin D is important for calcium absorption, so it's a good idea to compliment one with the other. Obviously if you get about 30 minutes of sunlight a day it shouldn't be a problem, but the UK isn't known for its sunniness. I don't take any personally, but it's winter now, so I may have to bite the bullet.

There's two kinds of vitamin D you can take: D2 and D3. D3 is marginally better absorbed than D2, but it comes from sheep's wool. Apparently there is D3 from lichen, but if you're gonna go to the trouble of taking vitamin D, I wouldn't bother; just take D2. Recommended dose is 600 IU (units; the concentration would be on the bottle). Good info on this (the site is managed by one of the RDs I linked earlier).

Calcium

This one's a doozy. The RDA is 1000mg a day and plenty of foods have it. Here's a short list I copied from here:


I don't take calcium supplements, I just get it from the rice milk in my coffee and various other foods. Plus lots of things are fortified with it now.

Omega 3s

Another easy one. A lot of the concern is with getting adequate intakes of EPA and DHA, which are mostly found in fish. Plant foods contain large amounts of ALA which the body then converts to the others. The issue is that it converts to DHA less efficiently and your body might not be that efficient at it in the first place. If you want to err on the side of caution you can supplement. I've been taking these rather lazily for a while now but when the bottle is out I don't think I'll continue with it (it's a big bottle). Here's some good info on it and here's some good sources of ALA. Also, nuts.

Zinc

I haven't concerned myself with this, honestly. Perhaps I should start. I'm just going to link a couple of articles on it; it's found in plenty of foods (NUTS), so apparently it isn't hard to get an adequate intake:

http://www.theveganrd.com/2009/05/getting-enough-zinc-on-vegan-diets.html
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/zinc

Finally, here are the supps I take:

B12 - absolutely essential. About 8 bucks a bottle and I take 2-3 weekly. Actually here's a few quick articles that you should read to figure out how much you'll need:

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/rec
http://www.theveganrd.com/2010/07/vitamin-b12-supplements-how-much-is-enough.html

Iron - another one to keep on your radar. Plant foods are't exactly low in iron, but it is non-heme iron which isn't absorbed as well. Eating iron with vitamin C increases absorption by about 30%. I'll look for a good recipe for spinach leaves dipped in lemon.

Vitamin C - predictaby. Probably not necessary, but it's insanely cheap -- one bottle lasts me over 6 months and I take more than I need to because they taste good.

Uh, that's it. My diet is pretty average, tbh, but I'm covering the important bases. I'll get a blood test by the end of the year and if there's anything alarming I'll tweak things accordingly.

Props for giving this a go, btw.