The UK fox hunting ban

More Than Mortal · May 16, 2015, 08:17:54 AM

I think I'm opposed to it. And by "oppose", I mean I would probably vote for its repeal were I given the chance. For the most part, it's a non-issue to me which I rarely think about; I don't know as much as I should about it, so I'm open to persuading.

But, it seems to me, that most of the people who support the ban on hunting foxes with dogs don't actually live in the countryside and don't deal with fox incursions. I wouldn't say I agree with the hunts with a lot of pomp, which go on for furlongs and furlongs but government regulation of the issue seems to be somewhat out of hand.

People don't seem to realise that dogs kill quickly; much faster, and much less painfully than a misplaced rifle bullet fired in the dead of night. Not to mention, shooting appears to be more indiscriminate; foxes who go after chickens are usually old and incapable of feeding themselves in safer ways and I'd imagine they're going to be the ones caught by the dogs as the younger and more agile foxes make their escape.

It seems as if urban people are just looking in, seeing fancy clothes and blood and denouncing it as aristocratic barbarism without much further thought.

Pendulate · May 16, 2015, 08:38:20 AM

While I don't really stay abreast of UK news, I have read that Cameron's motives for the repeal are less to do with farmer's livelihoods and more to do with his personal love of hunting as a sport.

More Than Mortal · May 16, 2015, 08:39:08 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 16, 2015, 08:38:20 AM

While I don't really stay abreast of UK news, I have read that Cameron's motives for the repeal are less to do with farmer's livelihoods and more to do with his personal love of hunting as a sport.

It's neither. He's doing it to throw his backbenchers a bone. If he had a more serious motive the potential repeal of it would be whipped, instead of being a free vote among the party.

Mordo · May 16, 2015, 08:53:03 AM

I wholeheartedly disagree with this repeal. Hunting animals for bloodsports is perverse, and I don't even care that I'm in agreement with the multitudes of champagne socialists who are opposed to this. Conservatives are wrong on this one.

Also there's a difference between killing foxes because they have become a nuisance on your property, and killing for entertainment purposes. The repeal seems to focus on the latter.

More Than Mortal · May 16, 2015, 08:57:14 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on May 16, 2015, 08:53:03 AM

Conservatives are wrong on this one.

The Conservatives have no position. It'll be a free vote.

Pendulate · May 16, 2015, 08:58:07 AM

And you think that's a commendable motive?

More Than Mortal · May 16, 2015, 09:00:25 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 16, 2015, 08:58:07 AM

And you think that's a commendable motive?

Having the vote in the first place, or making it a free vote?

I think the first is insignificant, and the second simply sensible.

challengerX · May 16, 2015, 09:03:45 AM

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Mr. Psychologist · May 16, 2015, 09:03:52 AM

I've lived in the countryside for the best part of my life, foxes have killed a few chickens that belong to a friend of the family and they shit on our lawn so the dogs roll around in it and come into the house reeking to high hell.

And yet, our friend's chicken coop was DIY and made out of a weak wire mesh that you could bend with your pinkie finger and deer, birds, badgers, hedgehogs and god knows what else uses the lawn as a latrine. I'm not rearing to shoot creatures for acting naturally.

If a fox is in your henhouse and you shoot it to save your chickens, that's fair enough. However chasing the poor bastard across miles and miles literally hounded every step of the way by horseback-mounted trumpet blaring little wankers to the point of exhaustion upon which it's shredded by the hounds... yeah that's not alright at all.

I've seen what's left of a fox after a pack of hounds has set to it, there is no way on earth it meets a quick and painless end.

A ghille stalker going around the woods and shooting the odd animal for either conservation (Deer) or food (Deer/Birds) is fine, it's not done primarily for entertainment and is usually quick and clean.

It's not done to protect livestock as surprise surprise the chicken farming industry didn't collapse overnight upon the ban coming into force, it's done for 'fun' and it is typically the preserve of the upper classes because the necessary equipment costs an arm and a leg hence the 'aristocratic barbarism' image. The best argument I can see for it being repealed is a traditions/heritage one, and yet that's still not good enough to justify killing animals for fun.

tl;dr Bloodsports involving animals are disgusting and wrong, repealing this ban would be a terrible running jump backwards in terms of how civilised the country is. If we want to degenerate to the level of the spaniards and make a spectator sport out of murdering/tormenting creatures then god help the UK.

Mordo · May 16, 2015, 09:04:34 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on May 16, 2015, 08:57:14 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on May 16, 2015, 08:53:03 AM
Conservatives are wrong on this one.
The Conservatives have no position. It'll be a free vote.

Obviously, but it's pretty clear they're in support of a repeal.

challengerX · May 16, 2015, 09:09:14 AM

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Pendulate · May 16, 2015, 09:16:19 AM

I think it's quite significant, given the views he has expressed.

Obviously I can't say to what extent he is driven by his enthusiasm for hunting (or "country sports", in his words) but considering its one of his main lines of defense I'd say it plays a large part.

It's ethically dubious and as such I'm wary of how effective it will be at yielding ethical results.

But as I said, I'm not up to speed on this, so I'd be interested in knowing the current problems that have arisen as a result of the Hunting Act.

More Than Mortal · May 16, 2015, 09:20:11 AM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on May 16, 2015, 09:03:52 AM

However chasing the poor bastard across miles and miles literally hounded every step of the way by horseback-mounted trumpet blaring little wankers to the point of exhaustion upon which it's shredded by the hounds...

I agree, which is why I said:

Quote

I wouldn't say I agree with the hunts with a lot of pomp, which go on for furlongs and furlongs

Quote

I've seen what's left of a fox after a pack of hounds has set to it, there is no way on earth it meets a quick and painless end.

Come on, man, you can't use what you've seen after a hunt to induce what happened during the hunt. And you certainly can't say that it simply must be worse than the possibility of a misplaced bullet because you've seen a mangled fox's corpse.

I agree that the pompous ceremonial attitude that goes with it is uncivilised and barbaric, but for the most part coursing seems like a fairly standard way of both controlling the population and protecting livestock. It can't be any coincidence that farmers' unions were vehemently opposed to the ban.

More Than Mortal · May 16, 2015, 09:21:19 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on May 16, 2015, 09:04:34 AM

Obviously, but it's pretty clear they're in support of a repeal.

I highly doubt that; the chances of it actually being repealed is close to nil. The party leadership is just throwing a bone to the backbenchers.

Mordo · May 16, 2015, 09:29:27 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on May 16, 2015, 09:20:11 AM

Come on, man, you can't use what you've seen after a hunt to induce what happened during the hunt. And you certainly can't say that it simply must be worse than the possibility of a misplaced bullet because you've seen a mangled fox's corpse.

I have no problem with a free vote, but this is a pretty flippant argument.

A bullet to the head is one of the most humane methods of ending an animal's life. There's virtually no pain involved. Dogs on the other hand attack their prey by targeting their jugular, leaving the animal to bleed out and die in an abysmal, brutalized manner.

I respect your intellectual honesty on this one, but I really do think you're letting your conservative biases get to you here.

Super Irish · May 16, 2015, 09:32:17 AM

As a countryside man who over has over my life lost several ducks and chickens to foxes, minx and badgers, I am against using dogs for fox hunting. It is pointlessly cruel to kill a fox in that way.

It's not even the dogs ripping them to shreds (well, partially...), it's more the whole chase thing. Chasing a fox until it no longer has the stamina to run, and then releasing the hounds on it when it can't fight back is just fucking barbaric. I could be wrong on the last part and it could be due to the dogs reaching the fox before the hunters do, but that just shows negligence on their part and the lack of control of their hunting dogs, which is even more showing of the type of people who do this.

I'm ok with professionals using guns to shoot and dogs to track them, but not letting them off the leash for the kill. And it's not like foxes are overly deserving of being hunted for killing poultry, it's not like it's hard to fence off a chicken's/duck's coup with wire and adequate shelter for the night. After loosing a lot to fox raids, my dad and I adapted the fencing and locked the chickens up at night and voila, no more chickens lost.

Using dogs to track - fine. Using the dogs to hunt and kill the animal - totally unjustifiable. You don't even eat the fucking fox afterwards.

Kitsune 狐 · May 16, 2015, 09:36:35 AM

Yay save the foxes! XD

More Than Mortal · May 16, 2015, 09:42:36 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on May 16, 2015, 09:29:27 AM

I respect your intellectual honesty on this one, but I really do think you're letting your conservative biases get to you here.

Like I say; I'm open to convincing. Most of the people I know who have experience with the countryside and have been on fox hunts usually tell me that dogs are a quick way for the animal to go; if you have any information that actually demonstrates coursing is obviously inhumane then I'll be happy to see it.

Although I did just find this Guardian article which is pushing me in favour of the ban. If it is indeed the case that foxes suffer needlessly as a result of coursing, and I have been misinformed, then of course I think the ban should remain.

Sandtrap · May 16, 2015, 10:35:54 AM

Well, you know, this could be easily solved if people took care of their fucking livestock.

The same problem exists here with certain types of livestock. Chickens. Minx's, or weasels, one of those two critters. A lot of people in the area have had chickens before, and they lost them all to critters.

There's an old chicken coop out at my sisters farm that I helped build. We reinforced every possible entrance. And not a single dead or missing chicken.

How about wolves/coyotes? Get a fucking llama. They have a good reputation as being guards for herd animals.

The problem with hunts, is that people take it way fucking overboard. They always do. To the extent that the population destabilizes. Always, without fail. And when it destabilizes, they issue a bounty or a hunt for the other side of the animal population which is booming and out of control.

When the simplest fucking solution is to use your head and be crafty.

Mr. Psychologist · May 16, 2015, 11:12:00 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on May 16, 2015, 09:20:11 AM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on May 16, 2015, 09:03:52 AM
However chasing the poor bastard across miles and miles literally hounded every step of the way by horseback-mounted trumpet blaring little wankers to the point of exhaustion upon which it's shredded by the hounds...
I agree, which is why I said:

Quote
I wouldn't say I agree with the hunts with a lot of pomp, which go on for furlongs and furlongs

Yeah, the trouble is all the pomp and poofery that goes with it is as much a part of the foxhunt as the actual killing of the fox. If it was steeple chasing with dogs and a truckload of ceremony crap then that's one thing but the issue arises from the way they kill the poor bastard.

Quote

I've seen what's left of a fox after a pack of hounds has set to it, there is no way on earth it meets a quick and painless end.

Come on, man, you can't use what you've seen after a hunt to induce what happened during the hunt. And you certainly can't say that it simply must be worse than the possibility of a misplaced bullet because you've seen a mangled fox's corpse.

I agree that the pompous ceremonial attitude that goes with it is uncivilised and barbaric, but for the most part coursing seems like a fairly standard way of both controlling the population and protecting livestock. It can't be any coincidence that farmers' unions were vehemently opposed to the ban.
[/quote]

I'd actually refer you here to the guardian article you yourself linked >.>

The dogs don't just kill it neatly with a broken neck, there is a mob of frenzied hounds all clamouring to take a bite out of the fox and it ends up being torn to shreds/mauled before it actually dies. A bullet to the head will kill pretty quickly if it's done properly, a retriever hound isn't going to destroy the game it's retrieving but foxhounds really go to town on the foxes and there is barely anything left at times.

It's cruelty plain and simple, hunting should not be done to cause as much carnage as possible simply for the entertainment of the hunter.

Mattie G Indahouse · May 16, 2015, 12:00:52 PM

Now what will the old rich fat white guys do?

Spoiler

Magos Domina · May 16, 2015, 12:43:42 PM

Fox hunting is disgusting. And no Meta it's not a quick kill.

More Than Mortal · May 16, 2015, 12:46:41 PM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 16, 2015, 12:43:42 PM

And no Meta it's not a quick kill.

Like I say, if that's the case then it should absolutely remain illegal.

Magos Domina · May 16, 2015, 01:07:06 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on May 16, 2015, 12:46:41 PM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 16, 2015, 12:43:42 PM
And no Meta it's not a quick kill.
Like I say, if that's the case then it should absolutely remain illegal.

I could post footage but I'd rather not. When the dogs get a fox or a deer they tear it apart. It's not like on safari were a lioness quickly goes for the throat, the dogs tear away at the animal then the hunter cuts the foxes tail off and "bloods" him/herself.

challengerX · May 16, 2015, 01:30:33 PM

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Flee · May 16, 2015, 02:05:02 PM

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Not Comms Officer · May 16, 2015, 05:12:37 PM

Depends on the context. I think that it should be legal if you have a permit, and that permit would be issued exclusively to people who have to deal with fox problems.

Making it illegal outright isn't fair for the farmers who would have their farms ravaged by foxes.

Magos Domina · May 16, 2015, 05:20:50 PM

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on May 16, 2015, 05:12:37 PM

Depends on the context. I think that it should be legal if you have a permit, and that permit would be issued exclusively to people who have to deal with fox problems.

Making it illegal outright isn't fair for the farmers who would have their farms ravaged by foxes.

Fox hunting isn't just grabbing your shotgun and shooting a threat to your livestock. Fox hunting is a barbaric act of rich bastards riding through the countryside with hundreds of dogs to trap any fox they see and tear it apart while it's still alive. It's bad enough the fucking "sport" is legal all over Ireland, we don't need the bad lifted in mainland UK. It's not the fucking middle ages anymore.

Not Comms Officer · May 16, 2015, 05:22:14 PM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 16, 2015, 05:20:50 PM

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on May 16, 2015, 05:12:37 PM
Depends on the context. I think that it should be legal if you have a permit, and that permit would be issued exclusively to people who have to deal with fox problems.

Making it illegal outright isn't fair for the farmers who would have their farms ravaged by foxes.
Fox hunting isn't just grabbing your shotgun and shooting a threat to your livestock. Fox hunting is a barbaric act of rich bastards riding through the countryside with hundreds of dogs to trap any fox they see and tear it apart while it's still alive. It's bad enough the fucking "sport" is legal all over Ireland, we don't need the bad lifted in mainland UK. It's not the fucking middle ages anymore.

I said that it would be only allowed for people whose livelihoods are under threat by foxes.

Magos Domina · May 16, 2015, 05:23:49 PM

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on May 16, 2015, 05:22:14 PM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 16, 2015, 05:20:50 PM
Quote from: Not Comms Officer on May 16, 2015, 05:12:37 PM
Depends on the context. I think that it should be legal if you have a permit, and that permit would be issued exclusively to people who have to deal with fox problems.

Making it illegal outright isn't fair for the farmers who would have their farms ravaged by foxes.
Fox hunting isn't just grabbing your shotgun and shooting a threat to your livestock. Fox hunting is a barbaric act of rich bastards riding through the countryside with hundreds of dogs to trap any fox they see and tear it apart while it's still alive. It's bad enough the fucking "sport" is legal all over Ireland, we don't need the bad lifted in mainland UK. It's not the fucking middle ages anymore.
I said that it would be only allowed for people whose livelihoods are under threat by foxes.

and people whos livestock are "at risk" still have the rights to kill that threat. Going into a remote area and having foxes ripped apart by packs of dogs has nothing to do with protecting livestock.